early gnr liveries

[john coffin]

it is of course very difficult to know for sure what liveries were before colour pictures, since paintings tended to be what the artist saw, and not necessarily, for scale purposes a proper colour.

in my coach quest, i am still personally sure that the first trains out of london,maiden lane were with teak carriages,
but the opening of doncaster station mentions red carriages, but not of what type, so there is still some doubt about the early use of teak.

but on the locos it is also quite confusing, as the result of another research project, it is suggested in many places that the gnr loco livery changed around 1880 to what became basic lner livery too. however, the painted/coloured picture of 215 i have seen suggests that "grass" or "apple" green was used as body colour before 1860, but there is certainly some thought that "brunswick" or GWR green was used as body colour after sturrock joined in 1850. however, the b/w photos seem to imply the body colour is lighter than brunswick, so!!!!!!!!!

plainly the early bought in locos would have come with a manufacturers applied colour, but since then there was no such thing as din or other colour codes, it would be interesting to see whether anyone else has found anything.
amongst my book collection are rcts gnr and lner, nock, tuplin, bird, crawley, weight and of course boddy and leech.

so have you any other data about early gnr colours between 1848-1880??

paul

[john coffin]

so having trawled more of my books, i am more confused. i checked grove vol 1, and it is clear that the initial livery was what the manufacturers had in stock in green, interestingly because at the time it was considered that green was more restful for the drivers eyes, helping them keep alert in what was still a new job to many. then sturrock seems to have introduced a version of gwr green before stirling changed it some time after 1876, corresponding in time to the appointment of frankie howlden as carriage and wagon superintendent. not sure how that maybe connected, but interesting other alley to go down

however it seems that the first hawthorn locos also came in light green which many think corresponds to what later became gnr "apple green", and maybe because of stirling's employment at hawthorns he preferred the colour, since he introduced a number of their ideas particularly in his tenders.

brunswick green seems to have been the whole superstructure colour, without any different colours except in the lining. of course the big problem is old black and white pictures depend on the quality of the emulsion used at the time, so it is not always clear what the contrast might be.

just another interesting point, in grove, there is a drawing of a steam tender but, the tank inside has the wrong front shape, so you do ask other questions about authenticity.

paul