Signalling and the 1876 Abbotts Ripton Accident

[StevieG]

I had originally posted the following as background info to this accident in the "Accidents involving the train Flying Scotsman" thread in the 'LNER Discussion' >> "LNER Locomotives and Rolling Stock" forum, but got a bit carried away and ended up thinking that it was inappropriate for that forum, so have moved it here as a new thread : -

One of the Flying Scotsman incidents was a head on collision involving thick fog and a frozen signal. Can't remember which one though.

'Abbots (at the time I think it would have been Abbotts) Ripton involved frozen signals*, was in the dark, and in laying snow; - I've a feeling it was also during a blizzard.

[* - This was when what is sometimes called 'open' block was still in use; i.e., although the signal boxes were in telegraphic communication for signalling trains, as soon as one signalman received 'train out of section' from the box ahead, the status of the block section was regarded as clear for the next train, and it was normal to clear one's signals again ready for the next one (if it was taking the same route as the previous one), even if he didn't know how much time would pass before it was not far away, until receiving the requisite first bell code from the previous box.
Hence, even in the 1960s, some of the older southern GN main line signalmen still referred to receipt of an 'Is line clear?' bell signal in Absolute or Permissive Block, as "getting the b'ready" (in those old times { 135 years ago! }, 'Be ready' for xxxx train's approach - no need to ask permission; the section was already 'cleared' and the signals 'off').
So main signals could remain in the 'off' ('clear') position for long periods, allowing them to become frozen in extreme winter conditions, not helped by the fact that their arms pivoted in a side-to-side slot through their posts (and I think the official 'clear' indication was with the arm invisible, dropped to vertical inside the post's slot, although many signal arms may not have quite gone down so far in reality).

.... No doubt that accident was instrumental in the subsequent change to 'closed' block, as still in use today, where block sections are considered 'closed' (older 'closed block'-era block instruments often had the appropriate segment of their indications 'dial' labelled as 'LINE CLOSED', rather than the more modern 'NORMAL') until 'opened' for the passage of each train by it being offered by one box to the next and accepted by the signalman there, and so on successively, section by section.
And the type of signal arm/post position and pivot arrangement in use was shown up as capable of improvement, and subsequently led to the invention of the somersault signal (reputedly thanks to a {virtually uncredited} railway clerk at Hitchin deciding to try thinking up a new design), which had the signal arm no longer moving in a slot, the arm pivot point was moved away from the post on to a side bracket, and the arm became centrally pivoted, combating the possibility of snow build-up on the face or back of a then-conventional (and glass spectacle-less {the night-time signal lamp was usually mounted lower down the post}), unequally pivoted arm overpowering its counter-balance weight and risking the arm drooping down when it ought to be at Danger (horizontal).]

[thesignalman]

And the type of signal arm/post position and pivot arrangement in use was shown up as capable of improvement, and subsequently led to the invention of the somersault signal (reputedly thanks to a {virtually uncredited} railway clerk at Hitchin deciding to try thinking up a new design), which had the signal arm no longer moving in a slot, the arm pivot point was moved away from the post on to a side bracket, and the arm became centrally pivoted, combating the possibility of snow build-up on the face or back of a then-conventional (and glass spectacle-less[/i] {the night-time signal lamp was usually mounted lower down the post}), unequally pivoted arm overpowering its counter-balance weight and risking the arm drooping down when it ought to be at Danger (horizontal).]

The inventor of the somersault signal was Edward French - I always understood he was an S&T man?

John

[Mickey]

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[strang steel]

I find it interesting that modern track circuited automatic signals (away from junctions, turnouts etc) have returned to the "open block" idea, with a green aspect for much of the time only changing to red on the passage of a train, and then returning (via yellows) to green as the train moves past successive signals ahead.

It would appear that the Victorians did have the right idea, but not the electronic technology with which to implement it.

[StevieG]

The inventor of the somersault signal was Edward French - I always understood he was an S&T man?

John

Oh, well thanks John. I wouldn't like to dispute that.
I was trying to recall something I once read years ago, about the signal's origin, and I also thought the name French was in there somewhere but was less sure about that.
Am I right, though, in that he was someone who wouldn't have been charged with improving equipment but nevertheless worked on this voluntarily, yet got little credit for the efficacy of his work, despite the design leading to a suitable, successful product, universally applied on the GN?

[Mickey]

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[Mickey]

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[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

The term "Board" for a PROPER signal (ie not traffic lights!) is virtually universal. I've never heard then called anything else and some crews still use the term for these modern traffic light thingies, dunno why!

I've never heard the term "Throw up" - rather it has been pull off and put back.

Just shows, we learn something every day!

[Mickey]

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[Boris]

I was fireman on three occasions when a signal was off and wrong.

First coming from Retford with a string of empty 20 ton coke hoppers behing an Austerity,Worksop distant was off, I called "back board" to the driver as I got first view of it and began firing ready to get a run on through Worksop, he said later he saw it in the off position.

As we apporoached Worksop lo and behold the home signal was on and the level crossing gates were open for road traffic
My mate slammed on the brakes and I hung on the hooter, short blast and the bobby managed to almost get the gates shut before we hit the far one and bent it a bit before stopping at the far end of the platform.

Second coming down from Orgreaves Colliery box to Rotherwood on the main line light engine on a foggy morning got a double yellow and the Rotherwoods home at red with a string of waggons crossing for one siding across our path
We stopped short and I went to the box where the signalman and two signal fitters denied that we could have got a double yellow

Third and most perculier was standing behind Sheffield Vic in the Down Goods

We had been there a good half hour when the board came off.
I was in he left hand seat of an O4 and could see in the moonlight and station lights that the catch points were still open.

We didn't move and I went to the box and the signal man agreed the signal was off on his diagram, he pulled at the lever and it wouldnt move as the catchpoint locking bars wouldn't let it.

As we watched the indicator light went out, I walked back to he engine and the signal was at stop



None of these were ever explained

[StevieG]

" Ay up!
The term "Board" for a PROPER signal (ie not traffic lights!) is virtually universal. .... "

" BB-
Some signalmen and driver's and other's sometimes refer to signals as 'pegs' as well .... "

As well as 'board' and 'peg', try 'stick' as well.
I forget where that one was used ; perhaps on the 'green' railway, south of the Thames.

Also

" Yeah well when a somersault signal returned to danger or caution from the off or all clear position the arm would basically go back up .... "

When I was describing the improvements embodied in the somersault signal, I forgot to mention that the arm, as well as being pivoted in its horizontal centre, the pivot point was also above the arm's horizontal centre line, so that even in the event of the arm losing its connection with its operating rod extending across from the main post, the arm would still rotate to being horizontal under its own weight.

[Mickey]

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[thesignalman]

As well as 'board' and 'peg', try 'stick' as well.
I forget where that one was used ; perhaps on the 'green' railway, south of the Thames.

That one was for the tunnel rats.

This page may be of interest for various signalling terms around the country:
http://www.signalbox.org/branches/jh/index.htm

John

[Mickey]

Deleted

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

The term "Board" for a PROPER signal (ie not traffic lights!) is virtually universal. I've never heard then called anything else and some crews still use the term for these modern traffic light thingies, dunno why!

I've never heard the term "Throw up" - rather it has been pull off and put back.

BB-
Some signalmen and driver's and other's sometimes refer to signals as 'pegs' as well (as you and probably 50% of the guy's on this forum would know) but nowadays with the kinda bod's we've got working on the job if you said the board or peg to any of them they would just look at you with a blank (me no comprendy) look on there faces

Yeah well when a somersault signal returned to danger or caution from the off or all clear position the arm would basically go back up hence either 'put up' or 'throw up'. When most of the somersault signals were replaced with upper quadrant signal arms then the signalman would just either 'put back' or 'throw back' i don't know if the signalmen on the G.W.R./W.R. said the same as well with all there lower quadrant signals?.

Doh! This just shows that I have been too long away from the steam locomotive.

Humble apologies.