ECML Summer Timetable 1964

[BJamieson]

I wonder if anyone has a 1964 summer timetable for either the ScR or NER as I'm trying to identify the expresses involved in three photographs I took of an A1 and two A3s at Berwick in June and August of that year. The trains involved were almost certainly dated Saturday only workings, a down train arriving at Berwick around 10.0 am and another down one early to mid afternoon.
Bill

[stembok]

Bill: have you tried Tommy Knox's site for help with your query?

[BJamieson]

Stembok: not yet, but if I have no luck here I will ask Tommy.

Bill

[stembok]

Around 10.00 am at Berwick - give or take - would mean it leaving Newcastle approximately some 70 -90 minutes earlier. The first two down trains at this time in the 1963 timetable were a Newcastle departure just after 09.00, with carriages attached from Tyne Commission Quay. It was followed by the normal York-Edinburgh semi-fast at around 09.18 from Newcastle, but nearer 11.00 am into Berwick. The afternoon sighting might be one of a number of relief trains, for example Scarborough -Glasgow or Hull - Glasgow, though some reliefs did not begin running until a few weeks into the summer timetable, ie early July.
Or it could, conceivably, be an excursion or a troop special -common at this time of year for summer camps etc. Do you have the loco numbers?

[BJamieson]

The 1963-64 winter timetable (which I have) shows a 7.0 am York - Edinburgh which was booked to stop at Berwick from 10.41 to 10.44 and I think this continued into the summer on the same timings. This train was normally diesel worked and can be ruled out as the steam workings I observed were perhaps half an hour earlier. I photographed 60084 (running nameless) on this earlier train in June 1964 and 60121 "Silurian" later in the summer. The afternoon working was in August of the same year with 60052 "Prince Palatine". Although my notes from that period are very sparse, all the trains definitely made booked stops and I'm almost certain they weren't troop trains.
Bill

[stembok]

Don't know whether this is of any help, but on Saturday, 20/6/64 60084 headed the 6.55 N/cle -Ed after the failure of D172 at Heaton. I wonder if the the train was delayed due to this. The 06.55 should, I imagine, have been at Berwick at around 08.30, but may well have been significantly delayed by the previous events.

[BJamieson]

That sounds a distinct possibility, although a delay of an hour and a half or more seems unlikely if the diesel failure was at Heaton - I imagine Gateshead would have got a loco there fairly quickly. That said, I might be wrong about it being around 10.0 am and it could have been rather earlier. However another clue is that 60145 "Saint Mungo" was on a down fitted freight through Berwick later that morning. Incidentally, there was a reasonable amount of steam about for a Saturday morning, with 60962 taking another freight through the down loop not far in front of 60145. Standard class 2 2-6-0 78012 also put in an appearance, most likely returning from Duns on the daily freight.

As regards, the appearance of 60052 in August, I'm inclined to think this was a Scarborough - Glasgow Queen St. working.
The album "Drawn to Scottish Steam" has a series of photographs of such trains at Queen St. (unfortunately not dated any more precisely than "summer 1964"), featuring a B1, V2s and 60052 on what are described as "extras". In summer 1966 there was a dated 10.25 SO Scarborough to Edinburgh train booked to set down only at Berwick at 14.39.
Bill

[stembok]

On Saturday, 27/6/64 60084 worked 1X22 up from Newcastle to York, returning later in the day, which may, perhaps, help eliminate that date, from your calculations.
Summer Saturdays 1964 also saw a 15.16 arrival in Waverley from Scarborough and a 16.11 arrival from Hull . Possibly an hour or just over from Berwick?

[BJamieson]

Yes, about 2.10 pm would fit for the afternoon working with 60052 - do you know what time that left Scarborough?

20/6/64 is looking increasingly likely for the 60084 working.

Bill

[stembok]

In 1964 the Scarborough -Glasgow would be running via York so approximately say, 10.25 off Scarborough, possibly C13.00 off Newcastle.

[BJamieson]

As a matter of interest, the locos (in chronological order) on the Saturday in June '64 when 60084 went to Edinburgh were as follows:
D278/60084/D9018/D264/D182/78012/60962/D368/60145/D9019/D9006. My parents went shopping in Berwick most Saturdays and I doubt that we set off much earlier than 9.0 am from Duns so I wouldn't be on the station until about 9.30. A few weeks earlier the St. Boswells train with its Hawick 78xxx 2-6-0 was always a useful marker (it arrived at 9.40 am and left again at 9.59) but that had last run on June 13th - which does of course mean that it really can't be earlier than June 20th as 78048 or whatever would have been noted! So I think you've solved the Trigo working - the very late running 6.55 am Newcastle - Edinburgh on 20/6/64.
Bill

[stembok]

A little additional information. On Saturday, 27/6/64 A1 60145 was employed on a troop special into Newcastle from the south. it appears to have been later in the day which may further help eliminate this date. Incidentally, 60145 would not have been long out of storage at Hull Dairycoates at this time, brought out for the summer services.