Finsbury Park No.3

[Mickey]

A rather good copy of the track diagram of Finsbury Park No.3 box.

http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways ... k_no_3.jpg

The box signalled the Down lines only and was located off the Down fast line & Down slow no.1 line platform at the south end of the station and signalled the Down fast, Down slow no.1, Down slow no.2, Down Canonbury, Down Carriage and both Goods lines as well as controlling the connections into & out of Western sidings (DMU sidings) & Finsbury Park diesel depot (Clarence yard). The box worked with Holloway North Down to the south on the Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines and with Finsbury Park No.1 on the Down Canonbury line and with Finsbury Park No.2 on the Down Carriage, Down Goods no.1 & Down Goods no.2 lines and to the north of the station with Finsbury Park No.5 on all the Down lines through the station. The box also controlled a connection to several sidings located along Stroud Green road at a higher level and during the 1970s a Pullman coach was seen regularly stabled opposite the Down platforms in a single siding road.

The rather large semaphore signal gantry on the Down Canonbury, Down Carriage, Down Goods no.1 & Down Goods no.2 lines was partly dismantled either in late 1967 or early 1968 when all the semaphore arms were removed as well as the dolls (the signal posts) and replaced with x4 3-aspect colour light signals with theatre light route indicator boxes being installed along side the individual colour light signals in a row along the top of the old gantry.

The box employed 3 resident signalmen and a (maybe 2?) telegraph lad(s) by the start of the 1970s. Lever no.79 & no.80 were known as 'the lads levers' I believe because they were located directly opposite the telegraph lads high desk at the far right end of the lever frame and it saved the signalman having to walk down that end of the frame to pull them off?.

The single needle telegraph code for the box was EO

From memory I believe the box closed around mid/late 1974?.

[Dave Cockle]

Hello Micky, Finsbury Park No 3 certainly had two telegraph lads in 1970. Dave Underwood and I held these positions.

I left No 3 in June 1970 to go to Ilford Training School on a signalman course as I had been appointed to a vacancy at Hertford North.

The large semaphore signal gantry spanning the low level lines (round the back) was still there in 1970. I believe the colour light heads were put on this gantry later on as part of the stage work for remodelling the track layout under the Kings Cross - Sandy/Royston resignalling.

I think Stevie G will know the date when the semaphores were replaced with colour lights.

[Mickey]

Yeah I know you was a telegraph lad at Finsbury Park 3 Dave also another Finsbury Park telegraph lad who was at Finsbury Park 6 in 1971 swapped boxes and went to Finsbury Park 3 around 1972 and his name was Alistair and I recall he transferred to the loco at Kings Cross during 1973 as a secondman and I believe several decades later he finished up as a driver at Hitchin depot anyway he invited me to visit Finsbury 3 one afternoon when he was at the box back in 1972 for a 'look around' and I recall the signalman who was at the box that afternoon was called Danny a Asian/Indian fella who didn't seem to bothered about me being in the box.

With regards to the LARGE SIGNAL GANTRY coming up from the Finsbury Park 2 direction Dave I always believed I recall seeing that gantry with all it's signal arms around late 1967 or early 1968 after which time from my memory all the signal arms were removed along with the tall dolls (signal posts) on the signal gantry and were replaced by x4 colour light heads and there associated route indicator boxes mounted in a row along the top part of the old gantry although you being at Finsbury Park 3 in 1970 would know but why I think it was 1968 I don't know?.

Way back in the early 1970s I saw a black & white picture that was possibly featured in a general railway picture book that was taken at the south end of Finsbury Park station from one of the Down platforms and it features that LARGE SIGNAL GANTRY with it's vast array of semaphore signals (set against a sky background) although I can't recall when the picture was dated if it was in 1967/68 or 1970(?) but I have a vague feeling the picture featured a EE type 4 (class 40) approaching Finsbury Park station from the Finsbury Park 2 direction.

[Mickey]

Dave you may remember this but am I correct in assuming that Finsbury Park 3 could only accept a train from Holloway North Down over the Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 lines (and the Down Canonbury line from Finsbury Park 1) with a 'clear block' to Finsbury Park 5 beyond the north end of Finsbury Park station?. Even though Finsbury Park 3s home signals were colour light signals the associated distant signals for the colour light home signals were still all semaphore distant signals plus the 440 yards 'clearing point' beyond each colour light home signal on the Down fast, Down slow no.1 & Down slow no.2 line probably fell somewhere further along Finsbury Park station platforms so I assume before a train was accepted from Holloway North Down there had to be a 'clear block' (the block indicator at LINE BLOCKED on the block instrument) between Finsbury Park 3 & Finsbury Park 5.

A name that I heard associated with Finsbury Park 3 was a signalman by the name of Albert Coe although I believe the same Albert Coe also worked Hatfield no.3 at some stage but I am not sure if it was before Finsbury Park 3 or after?.

[StevieG]

Mickey, I disappeared into my archive of disorganised and rough notes for a couple of days, and have come up with some info regarding the change of Finsbury Park No.3 Box's 'low level' lines' Homes gantry's signals from semaphore to colour-light, etc.

Firstly, my colour slide of the gantry before any alteration, that has appeared once or twice over the years in such as Peter Kay's articles in BR Illustrated / London Railway Record and the Newsletter of the GNRS, and is my avatar in the Forums ('The Blower') of www.signalbox.org (and I'm sure used to also be my avatar in these Forums but avatars seem to have disappeared sometime when I wasn't looking).
I took that photo around May 1970, so no C/Ls on the gantry then.


Then, regarding extracted details from the weekly notice Section Cs : -

- It sounds like you remember something of those changes to the three Goods / Carriage lines signalling before reaching the No.3 box gantry, at and from No.2 Box, in connection with the new points from 'Clarence Yard' (christened "Stabling Sidings"; the remaining roads of the pre-diesel depot proper Clarence Yard; later used as the normal exit from the depot) onto Down Goods 2 just in rear of the gantry.

-- 04th April 1971 (Notice)
Abolition of No.3's three mechanical independent Distants, their being replaced by new motorised Distants below No.2's four lines' Home signals (included that on the Down Canonbury Goods) (required abolition of No.2's 'stacked' DG1-DG2 and DG2-DG1 Homes, and equipping the remaining DG1 and DG2 Homes with 'Theatre' Route Indicators), and provision of a new single-arm No.3 Box straight-post motorised DG2 semaphore outer Home right in front of the old Distants bracket. For the new work a new three-switch IFS control box was added to No.3's Block shelf : Numbered
101 (DG2 First (outer) Home);
102 (GPLS 'Stabling Sidings to DG2 6 signal [on gantry] );
103 ('Stabling Sidings'/ DG2 motor points) --,
-- 102 & 103 not brought into use yet at this date; due to be a week or two later but then postponed and republished to be 23rd May 1971 (but my notes of 13th November 2020 still said not in use; - but whatever, I should think that they must have been brought in around that time or during the May-Nov.).

-- 28th November 1971 (Notice)
All the No.3 gantry's four dolls of semaphore Homes with No.5 Box's Distants at their bottoms, replaced by 3-aspect colour-lights, + 'Theatre' Route Indicators for Dn. Canonbury, Dn. Carriage, and DG1.

Another reason for your 'the Lad's signals'- the track diagram was down at Block shelf level towards the right-hand end, and not only were the Down Fast Distant and Home levers at the extreme right-hand end of the frame, but the DFL Blocks and bells, almost above them, were the only ones to the right of the diagram (as was the Block Switch); the other 10 Blocks and bells, and a few other instruments (including the local FK-GY telegraph) were all to the left of the diagram.

The 'Danny' that you mention Mickey would've been Danny D'Souza, who later moved to 'the GE' and by March 1989 (when I moved there) was a signalman in Liverpool Street (old box, and the replacement IECC).
Albert Coe, I first knew of at Hatfield 3, then at FP No.3, and ultimately in (the current) KX PSB before retiring sometime after 1988: Once told me he had (first?) worked in the old Holloway Carriage Sidings box.

[Mickey]

Very interesting post Stevie so that large signal gantry at Finsbury Park 3 was abolished in 1971 as Dave said it was which I didn't doubt seeing that he was at Finsbury Park 3 as a 'box lad' at the time. I must have 1968 on the brain I thought the same about the re-signalling at New Southgate that it took place in 1968 rather than 1970 as you said.

I remember the x3 semaphore distant signals underneath Finsbury Park 2s Down Carriage, Down Goods no.1 & Down Goods no.2 lines home signals coming from Holloway North Down (opposite Finsbury Park diesel depot) carried on the x3 doll bracket signal post and they also had some sort of 'route indicator' boxes attached on each of those dolls I vaguely recall?. The distant signals beneath Finsbury Park 2s home signals were all 'motorised' distant signals although I can't ever remember seeing any one of those distant signals in the off position at anytime back then?. Regarding Finsbury Park 2s home signals on the Down Carriage, Down Goods no.1 & Down Goods no.2 lines I believe I had seen all 3 home signals on the bracket signal 'pulled off' on rare occasions I presume when Finsbury Park 2 was switched out?.

Regarding Danny D'Souza yes he's name as been mentioned before by Dave Cockle who obviously knew him and as for Albert Coe I never knew him but Harry Fitzgerald at Welwyn Garden City mentioned his name a couple of times when I was at the box about when Albert was at Hatfield no.3.

Yeah your avatar has always shown the Finsbury Park 3 large signal gantry Stevie and it was an impressive looking gantry without doubt which the London area of the GN had several including a couple at Goods And Mineral Junction, the Finsbury Park 4 Up slow line 'directing signals', Harringay (passenger) Up lines starting signals with Finsbury Park 6 distant signals beneath, the Hornsey Up Goods gantry on the Goods lines and Carriage lines, the Wood Green No.1 Down lines home signals on the large tall gantry & Wood Green Up Box No.2 Up lines home signals on the tall bracket post with No.4s distant signals beneath.

[StevieG]

No resignalling at 'Southgate' before 1972 Mickey; - except maybe just the removal of most of the "Through" ('ladder') Crossover, leaving just No.51 UFL/DFL and dollies 50 & 52.

[StevieG]

[Just added a bit about your 'the 'Lad's signals' at FP3 to my last long post Mickey.]

[Mickey]

Out of the two boxes at 'the park' that employed telegraph lads in the early 1970s I always preferred Finsbury Park 6 myself rather than Finsbury Park 3 I always thought No.6 was the better box out of the two although No.3 had more levers than No.6.

Regarding 'the lads levers' no.79 & no.80

I can imagine that custom of the telegraph lads working the block instrument and both levers no.80 & no.79 opposite where the telegraph lad would normally be found writing in the train register book as 'saving the signalman' having to walk down that end of the block shelf and lever frame to work the block and pull those two levers off and put them back behind a train as saving the signalman doing extra work that the box lad who was usually up that end of the lever frame could perform so I presume that custom probably dates back to GNR days?. Just because Finsbury Park 5 has accepted a train on the block from Finsbury Park 3 on the Down fast line didn't mean to say the bloke in Finsbury Park 5 would pull straight off along the Down fast line at the north end of the station he may already have a train in the block section on the Down fast line between Finsbury Park 5 and Harringay or Hornsey No.1 if Harringay was switched out(?) and pull off his Down fast line home & distant signal thus allowing the bloke in Finsbury Park 3 to pull off his own Down fast line distant signal as well. So the bloke in Finsbury Park 3 could be waiting a minute or two for the bloke in Finsbury Park 5 to 'pull off' along the Down fast line at the north end of the station and meanwhile other block bells and movements were requiring his attention back along the block shelf and lever frame at the other end of the box in Finsbury Park 3 so it made sense to let the 'box lad' take care of the Down fast line block & signal levers.

[Mickey]

A loco coming off Finsbury Park MPD would stop at the exit signal (no.1 signal with a set of trap points immediately ahead as part of no.2 points) and the secondman would climb down from the cab and ring up Finsbury Park No.3 and inform the signalman or telegraph lad where the loco was heading for?.

From memory that no.1 miniature signal at the exit from Finsbury Park MPD was abolished and replaced by a ground position light signal possibly around 1970/71?.

From memory again the large group of 'points rodding' from the south end of the box had the 'signal wires run' above the points rodding.