Does anyone know when the Up Reception Line from Cemetery to New Southgate station was finally disconnected? I remember Signal K498, on the Up Slow Line just south of Barnet Tunnel, having a call-on facility that gave you access to it but cannot remember when it finally went. I'm sure it was pre-privatisation. Any help appreciated.
Ian Kapur.
Cemetery Up Reception Line
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StevieG
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Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
Not sure I can help much Ian.
You may know that, pre-resignalling, the Up Reception used to commence at Cemetery Box, but once the need to have its commencement close to a signal box, for mechanical operation, and the two ground frame-operated trailing point connections off it back into the Standard Telephones & Cables company's works were no longer needed, the resignalling saw commencement of the line moved to immediately south of the Oakleigh Road road-over-rail bridge, via new points No.2162, and entry to the line governed, as you say, by the subsidiary signal head on new signal 498 not far south of Barnet Tunnel's exit portals at Cemetery [it was a 'subsidiary' as it authorised all moves onto what was, essentially, always a type of siding line : Strictly, a Calling-On signal (if provided) allows entry to a signal section on a running line that is already occupied].
The line still ended almost exactly where it and the Up Goods previously had, just south of New Southgate station (at newly-numbered 2159 points to the Up Slow, guarded by 486 exit signal).
The siding still had the old handpoints connections into and within the New Southgate 'Top Yard', about half-way between Cemetery and New Southgate station, which was still used for stabling spare coaching stock, engineers. trains, and any Up freights awaiting forward locomotive and/or crew, although if the delay with the latter was not expected to be too long, they were sometimes stabled on the Through Siding in New Southgate station if no other trains would be impeded.
Initially the new signalling and layout from south of Oakleigh Park station had come in on closure of Cemetery and New Southgate boxes (1972/3 ?), and was temporarily operated/supervised from Wood Green No.2 Box (new signal prefix 'WG2'), and the line renamed Up Through Siding : Only on final transfer of control from the Wood Green area [the panel in the former No.4 Box ('WG') ] to the new Kings Cross PSB in approx. 1975/6 were the signal prefixes changed to 'K'.
Unfortunately I cannot put a date on when those uses of the Through Siding might have ceased, or when the line was put out of use (which might've been some while later of course).
I know it was still in use when I had a particular job along the line during 1974-77. And when I once made a rough sketch diagram of the whole KC panel in about 1979/80 I've a feeling it was still on the panel, but I'm sorry that that's as far as I can help.
You may know that, pre-resignalling, the Up Reception used to commence at Cemetery Box, but once the need to have its commencement close to a signal box, for mechanical operation, and the two ground frame-operated trailing point connections off it back into the Standard Telephones & Cables company's works were no longer needed, the resignalling saw commencement of the line moved to immediately south of the Oakleigh Road road-over-rail bridge, via new points No.2162, and entry to the line governed, as you say, by the subsidiary signal head on new signal 498 not far south of Barnet Tunnel's exit portals at Cemetery [it was a 'subsidiary' as it authorised all moves onto what was, essentially, always a type of siding line : Strictly, a Calling-On signal (if provided) allows entry to a signal section on a running line that is already occupied].
The line still ended almost exactly where it and the Up Goods previously had, just south of New Southgate station (at newly-numbered 2159 points to the Up Slow, guarded by 486 exit signal).
The siding still had the old handpoints connections into and within the New Southgate 'Top Yard', about half-way between Cemetery and New Southgate station, which was still used for stabling spare coaching stock, engineers. trains, and any Up freights awaiting forward locomotive and/or crew, although if the delay with the latter was not expected to be too long, they were sometimes stabled on the Through Siding in New Southgate station if no other trains would be impeded.
Initially the new signalling and layout from south of Oakleigh Park station had come in on closure of Cemetery and New Southgate boxes (1972/3 ?), and was temporarily operated/supervised from Wood Green No.2 Box (new signal prefix 'WG2'), and the line renamed Up Through Siding : Only on final transfer of control from the Wood Green area [the panel in the former No.4 Box ('WG') ] to the new Kings Cross PSB in approx. 1975/6 were the signal prefixes changed to 'K'.
Unfortunately I cannot put a date on when those uses of the Through Siding might have ceased, or when the line was put out of use (which might've been some while later of course).
I know it was still in use when I had a particular job along the line during 1974-77. And when I once made a rough sketch diagram of the whole KC panel in about 1979/80 I've a feeling it was still on the panel, but I'm sorry that that's as far as I can help.
BZOH
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manna
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Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
G'day Gents
I had the pleasure of being put into that road early one Saturday morning with a freightliner, we sat there for about an hour, before we were allowed to run down to Finsbury Pk, for relief, that would have been winter 75/76, I remember that trip from Donny, as the cab windows froze.............on the 'inside'
manna
I had the pleasure of being put into that road early one Saturday morning with a freightliner, we sat there for about an hour, before we were allowed to run down to Finsbury Pk, for relief, that would have been winter 75/76, I remember that trip from Donny, as the cab windows froze.............on the 'inside'
manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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Mickey
Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
I can't answer your question directly Ian as I was more familiar with the Cemetery layout during the 1968-1974 era but back in late 1967 early 1968 I believe I recall that there was x2 Up Reception lines running parallel with each other from just south of Cemetery box southwards towards New Southgate I vaguely recall?.Ian Kapur wrote:Does anyone know when the Up Reception Line from Cemetery to New Southgate station was finally disconnected? I remember Signal K498, on the Up Slow Line just south of Barnet Tunnel, having a call-on facility that gave you access to it but cannot remember when it finally went. I'm sure it was pre-privatisation. Any help appreciated.
On a return trip to Welwyn Garden City about 3 or 4 years ago I did actually notice when travelling between Cemetery & New Southgate that the Up Reception line (to my surprise?) from Cemetery to New Southgate had been lifted altogether?. Granted the decline in freight traffic along the GN main line especially over the Up lines between Langley Junction via Hatfield to Wood Green has dwindled to near non-existence (currently any freight traffic heading north or south of north London seems to be routed mainly via the Hertford branch these days) but having the Up Reception line available between Cemetery & New Southgate to 'recess trains' either freight or ECS trains especially 'in an emergency' I would have thought would have been a useful facility to have retained?. From vague memory at least from about 1969/70 onwards a large part of that Up reception line was well layed and well ballasted throughout with 'flat bottom rails' I recall.
Mickey
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StevieG
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Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
The line next to the Up Slow was actually a proper (Permissive Block) Goods line Mickey.FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... I was more familiar with the Cemetery layout during the 1968-1974 era but back in late 1967 early 1968 I believe I recall that there was x2 Up Reception lines running parallel with each other from just south of Cemetery box southwards towards New Southgate I vaguely recall?. .... "
It was the second line that was actually the Up Reception in those days, a 'no block' (& no bell) line (despite the anomaly of Cemetery's Up Slow Home to Up Reception signal 23 actually having a full-size arm), so some reckoned it was worked on the 'Telephone & Prayer Block system', and it was this line which had the GFs into the STC works and the handpoints connections back into the 'Top Yard'.
In its later form (which seems to be what Ian is enquiring about, given his referencing signal K498 at Cemetery), the Through Siding had been formed by bits of both the old Up Goods and Up Reception, with slews to connect them, so that it started next to the Up Slow just south of Oakleigh Road bridge, included handpoint access to 'Top Yard' via a new connection back to those same Up Reception handpoints into the yard, then slewing away from the US near Friern Barnet Road overbridge so that it still served the loading dock alongside 'Southgate' station, before veering back again to end in joining the US by the old station yard goods shed.
I'm pretty sure that it's been gone a lot longer; maybe 15-20 years.FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... On a return trip to Welwyn Garden City about 3 or 4 years ago I did actually notice when travelling between Cemetery & New Southgate that the Up Reception line (to my surprise?) from Cemetery to New Southgate had been lifted altogether?. .... "
Although doubtless the 'sub' below the main head of K498 signal at Cemetery is long gone, last time I noticed, there remained a clue to the line's former existence in that the next Up Slow signal, K494 alongside where 'Top Yard' used to be, still hung to the left of its line from a high right-hand bracket structure with its foot on the cess side of where the up Through Siding had been; 494 therefore being notably higher than its Up Fast straight-posted companion, K492.
One of many such 'just in case' facilities across the network that, over the last 30(?) years, I expect have at some time been judged not worth the modern-day theoretical costs of maintenance and avoidable delays, Mickey; not only track, but signalling [signals, point machines, relays (local and relay-room), overhead wires (if any), etc.]; (more's the pity in many cases).FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... but having the Up Reception line available between Cemetery & New Southgate to 'recess trains' either freight or ECS trains especially 'in an emergency' I would have thought would have been a useful facility to have retained?. ....
BZOH
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Mickey
Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
Yes I remember when this question came up before about the lines between Cemetery & New Southgate a couple of years ago Stevie and you posted what the name of those lines actually were but I couldn't remember off the top of my head if they were called the Up Goods no.1 & Up Goods no.2 lines or the Up Goods & Up Reception lines?.StevieG wrote:The line next to the Up Slow was actually a proper (Permissive Block) Goods line Mickey.FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... I was more familiar with the Cemetery layout during the 1968-1974 era but back in late 1967 early 1968 I believe I recall that there was x2 Up Reception lines running parallel with each other from just south of Cemetery box southwards towards New Southgate I vaguely recall?. .... "
It was the second line that was actually the Up Reception in those days, a 'no block' (& no bell) line (despite the anomaly of Cemetery's Up Slow Home to Up Reception signal 23 actually having a full-size arm), so some reckoned it was worked on the 'Telephone & Prayer Block system', and it was this line which had the GFs into the STC works and the handpoints connections back into the 'Top Yard'.
Yes I had a feeling that line had been abolished and lifted a number of years before I noticed it had been lifted Stevie.StevieG wrote:I'm pretty sure that it's been gone a lot longer; maybe 15-20 years.FINSBURY PARK 5 wrote: " .... On a return trip to Welwyn Garden City about 3 or 4 years ago I did actually notice when travelling between Cemetery & New Southgate that the Up Reception line (to my surprise?) from Cemetery to New Southgate had been lifted altogether?. .... "
Mickey
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Mickey
Re: Cemetery Up Reception Line
With regards to the signalling on the Up slow line at Cemetery during the mid 1960s when I first saw the box during the summer of 1967 it was as follows-
Beside the Up slow line just north of the box stood x3 full-size semaphore stop signals these signals stood approximately 100-150 yards south of the southern end of the single line bore of the Barnet tunnel. The signalling was as follows x2 arms were mounted on a right-hand bracket post which read from right to left the Up slow line home signal and standing along side it but at a slightly lower level was the Up slow to Up goods line stop signal plus standing alone a few yards away from the bracket signal post on it's own straight white painted wooden post with a rather nice pointed 'top final' at the top of the post was the stop signal that read Up slow to Up Reception line.
Several months on from the summer of 1967 either in late 1967 or early 1968(?) there was some track alterations & resignalling work carried out at Cemetery with the Up Reception line being 'de-signalled' (for want of a better expression?) with the stand alone stop signal standing just north of the box that read Up slow to Up Reception line being abolished altogether and at the sametime the left-hand full-size stop signal arm on the bracket post that read Up slow to Up goods line signal being replaced by a red miniture arm instead while the right-hand Up slow line semaphore home signal still remained as a full-size stop signal arm.
Mickey
Beside the Up slow line just north of the box stood x3 full-size semaphore stop signals these signals stood approximately 100-150 yards south of the southern end of the single line bore of the Barnet tunnel. The signalling was as follows x2 arms were mounted on a right-hand bracket post which read from right to left the Up slow line home signal and standing along side it but at a slightly lower level was the Up slow to Up goods line stop signal plus standing alone a few yards away from the bracket signal post on it's own straight white painted wooden post with a rather nice pointed 'top final' at the top of the post was the stop signal that read Up slow to Up Reception line.
Several months on from the summer of 1967 either in late 1967 or early 1968(?) there was some track alterations & resignalling work carried out at Cemetery with the Up Reception line being 'de-signalled' (for want of a better expression?) with the stand alone stop signal standing just north of the box that read Up slow to Up Reception line being abolished altogether and at the sametime the left-hand full-size stop signal arm on the bracket post that read Up slow to Up goods line signal being replaced by a red miniture arm instead while the right-hand Up slow line semaphore home signal still remained as a full-size stop signal arm.
Mickey