Mid 50s express stock

[JohnV]

Hello folks,
By the mid 50s were the main expresses on the ECML of Thompson and/or Mark 1 stock or were some rakes of Gresleys still in use? If so, on which trains?
Cheers

[JohnV]

Sorry mods - I should have posted this on the Locos/Rolling Stock thread - please feel free to move it.

[65447]

Hello folks,
By the mid 50s were the main expresses on the ECML of Thompson and/or Mark 1 stock or were some rakes of Gresleys still in use? If so, on which trains?
Cheers

Quick answer Mark 1 rapidly replacing Thompson stock, which had already rapidly replaced most Gresley stock.

East Coast and the other principal workings had always been given the latest stock.

Easiest way to check in photographs for the mid-50s is to look for all crimson and cream liveried stock - any teak-panelled Gresley coaches will stand out from the Thompson's and Mark 1s, while the Thompson's had the deep underframe trussing whereas the Mark 1s had visible battery boxes.

Just looked up the 'named' train East Coast workings in 1952 and even by then there were substantial numbers of Mark 1s specified in their composition. By 1957 the only non-Mark 1s were Sleepers, catering vehicles, Pullman cars and of course non-passenger carrying vans. The only passenger-carrying Gresley vehicles still extant were the Triplet Restaurant Car set and some other catering vehicles and Sleepers.

Looking at some photographs, it's clear that efforts were made to keep like types together, so that for example one set of 'Flying Scotsman' stock was still predominantly Thompson's into the late 50s whilst another was Mk1s.

[Hatfield Shed]

...By 1957 the only non-Mark 1s were Sleepers, catering vehicles, Pullman cars and of course non-passenger carrying vans. The only passenger-carrying Gresley vehicles still extant were the Triplet Restaurant Car set and some other catering vehicles and Sleepers...

I am sorry to have to write this, but that is wildly in error! There are ample photographs that will show a variety of all types of LNER carriage designs in service into the early sixties. This was not confined to secondary services either. The Thompson / Newton design vehicles for the 1947 Flying Scotsman train, dominated the make up of 'The Elizabethan' until 1961, and the Talisman was typically a 50:50 mix of LNER designs and BR mk1 until 1962, famously including the Gresley twin firsts from the Coronation sets. Lesser services like the wonderful 'Beer train' almost inevitably included an LNER design third brake and buffet car among the five or six mk1s that completed the usual set, until about 1965, and the non-gangwayed outer sub services retained the Thompson CL's until much the same date. The extinction of the LNER types other than the very frequently seen BG's, and the less numerous catering vehicles and sleepers, (and the quite astounding retention of several sets of Quadarts until 1966) was pretty much achieved by 1965 in my opinion (as seen at the Southern end of the ECML).

[65447]

...By 1957 the only non-Mark 1s were Sleepers, catering vehicles, Pullman cars and of course non-passenger carrying vans. The only passenger-carrying Gresley vehicles still extant were the Triplet Restaurant Car set and some other catering vehicles and Sleepers...

I am sorry to have to write this, but that is wildly in error! There are ample photographs that will show a variety of all types of LNER carriage designs in service into the early sixties. This was not confined to secondary services either. The Thompson / Newton design vehicles for the 1947 Flying Scotsman train, dominated the make up of 'The Elizabethan' until 1961, and the Talisman was typically a 50:50 mix of LNER designs and BR mk1 until 1962, famously including the Gresley twin firsts from the Coronation sets. Lesser services like the wonderful 'Beer train' almost inevitably included an LNER design third brake and buffet car among the five or six mk1s that completed the usual set, until about 1965, and the non-gangwayed outer sub services retained the Thompson CL's until much the same date. The extinction of the LNER types other than the very frequently seen BG's, and the less numerous catering vehicles and sleepers, (and the quite astounding retention of several sets of Quadarts until 1966) was pretty much achieved by 1965 in my opinion (as seen at the Southern end of the ECML).

But the OP was asking about the main expresses, so much of your reply is not relevant while mine was limited to a response to that.

I suggest that you check photographs in e.g. Yeadon's Named Trains, as I did, whilst the Carriage Workings identify BR standard stock with an * so that's definite source information too. Remember also that most named/prestige trains were made up of at least two sets and often more by the time the reliefs and so on were included. It's clear that for more than one service one set was predominantly 'Thompsons' and the other Mk1s.

[robertcwp]

As noted above, the Elizabethan remained predominantly Thompson stock until the early 1960s. The Heart of Midlothian had a full Mark I set early on as it was one of the first trains designated to be formed of such stock, although some Thompson stock found its way into the formation over the years.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Mark I catering cars did not appear in force on the East Coast until the final batch of RUs with Commonwealth bogies appeared c1961. Prior to that, the Mark I catering cars built from 1957 did not ride well. However, the Flying Scotsman was the first to gain Mark I miniature buffets in 1958.

1958 Summer ECML carriage workings are available here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/327 ... mer_CW.pdf

[Hatfield Shed]

But the OP was asking about the main expresses, so much of your reply is not relevant while mine was limited to a response to that...

And 'The Elizabethan' and 'Talisman' were principal expresses and had a hefty presence of LNER vehicles until 1961/62, both Thompson and Gresley vehicles in evidence. So why state 1957? Other services were often mk1 in make up by intent, but the actuality was different; ample evidence from photos, of substitution by Gresley and Thompson designs.

[65447]

So why state 1957?

Because 1952 and 1957 were the years I looked for BR standard stock appearing in the East Coast Carriage Workings I have describing those trains, ergo they were datum points either side of the mid-50s stated by the OP. As almost all (if not quite all) of those workings were based on reserved seats it's bad practice to substitute a coach with a different seating arrangement as that really messes up the system and those travelling.

The 'Heart of Midlothian' was a BR 'Festival of Britain' introduction and BR standard stock was mandated for it, although any strengtheners or substitutes might not be.

[robertcwp]

Winter 1955-6 ECML workings here:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/327 ... CML_CW.pdf

[65447]

1958 Summer ECML carriage workings are available here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/327 ... mer_CW.pdf

Note that, save for the RU, The 'Flying Scotsman' was shown as being all BR standard stock in the above as was the 'Fair Maid', the 'Norseman' save for the catering vehicles and the 2 tagged on for Newcastle, as was the 11o'clock for Aberdeen & Glasgow, the 'Northumbrian', 'Heart of Midlothian' of course, the 2 p.m. and 3.10 p.m. and 5.35 p.m. to Newcastle (save for specific strengtheners), the 'Talisman', and then came the sleeper services.

[JASd17]

I think whole volumes could be written on the slightly vague question asked. Which bit of the mid 1950s? 1952-3 to 1958 is a big leap.

As usual robertcwp has the best information. Many thanks Robert for making it available.

I consider JohnV you need to narrow the scope of your original question to get a sensible answer. Not least, which trains are you thinking about?

One thing that is certain to remember is that no genuine ECML formation of the mid 1950s is likely to be available 'out of the box' in modelling terms so to speak.

I am hopeful of getting access to the Eric Treacy negatives again at the NRM (I was one of the original recorders many years ago), which would provide much needed evidence on the East Coast trains, and others, of the period required above.

Happy to help further JohnV.

John

[JohnV]

By mid 50s, I mean just that - ergo 1955/1956.

[Hatfield Shed]

So why state 1957?

Because 1952 and 1957 were the years I looked for BR standard stock appearing in the East Coast Carriage Workings I have describing those trains, ergo they were datum points either side of the mid-50s stated by the OP. As almost all (if not quite all) of those workings were based on reserved seats it's bad practice to substitute a coach with a different seating arrangement as that really messes up the system and those travelling.

The 'Heart of Midlothian' was a BR 'Festival of Britain' introduction and BR standard stock was mandated for it, although any strengtheners or substitutes might not be.

And you honestly believe that intention was always carried through into operation? Just look at the photos of those services from the likes of Treacy, Walker, Hoole, and many others. It's easy to identify the LNER design stock in that named train, side on by the underframe trussing, or roof top view by the long curved rainstrip and destination board clips. This was the traditionally worked steam railway, where train formations were made up specifically for the services, and the best available vehicles were used. You may think it 'bad practise' to use a non-mk1 substitute; but I promise you it is worse practise to not have the vehicle in the train at all. The largely ex-LNER platform staff were expert at sorting out any difficulties in booked accomodation. Enough from me on this.

[robertcwp]

So why state 1957?

Because 1952 and 1957 were the years I looked for BR standard stock appearing in the East Coast Carriage Workings I have describing those trains, ergo they were datum points either side of the mid-50s stated by the OP. As almost all (if not quite all) of those workings were based on reserved seats it's bad practice to substitute a coach with a different seating arrangement as that really messes up the system and those travelling.

The 'Heart of Midlothian' was a BR 'Festival of Britain' introduction and BR standard stock was mandated for it, although any strengtheners or substitutes might not be.

And you honestly believe that intention was always carried through into operation? Just look at the photos of those services from the likes of Treacy, Walker, Hoole, and many others. It's easy to identify the LNER design stock in that named train, side on by the underframe trussing, or roof top view by the long curved rainstrip and destination board clips. This was the traditionally worked steam railway, where train formations were made up specifically for the services, and the best available vehicles were used. You may think it 'bad practise' to use a non-mk1 substitute; but I promise you it is worse practise to not have the vehicle in the train at all. The largely ex-LNER platform staff were expert at sorting out any difficulties in booked accomodation. Enough from me on this.

I think Steve Banks would be able to contribute here. Bit surprised he's not done so already.

I have looked at many hundreds of photos by those mentioned and, setting aside the Elizabethan, they show lots of Mark I stock in the principal trains by the mid-1950s, but also plenty of LNER designs too, in particular the catering vehicles as I mentioned in an earlier post. One thing to keep in mind is that lots of photos were taken on summer Saturdays when more pre-nationalisation stock was probably in use as strengtheners or in relief sets.

The Heart of Midlothian seems to have switched back to LNER for the catering, possibly because the token few BR Standard cars built in the early 1950s so complete trains of the stock could be formed were not popular. Also unpopular were the early Mark I open thirds because the seats were too narrow. Hence Gresley open thirds continued to be used widely.

Here is a mixed formation from 1957:
60048_ChalonersWhin_4-8-57 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

And a predominantly LNER one on a Sunday train in 1954:

60022_BrookmansPark_5-9-54 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

By 1960, Mark I stock was more dominant:
60007_FS_LittleBytham_14-5-60 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr