LNER Garter Blue Discussion

[Saint Johnstoun]

A typical lovely 1930's Bugatti

http://www.williamianson.com/cars-for-s ... .php?id=55

hard to tell from pictures but Simons Blue appears much too pale IMHO

Wait until you see it finished Mick. The photographs don't give a fair reflection of the colour. I do think we've been so used to the extremely dark livery on Hornby's models and on the preserved fleet that we have overlooked the many colour slides and evidence available to us.

When I first painted it on the tender I thought it looked too pale too but further painting on the body shell in particular has allayed my own fears.

Once the model is finished I'll put up a few pictures and you can all make your minds up on it.

The Blue on that Bugatti, taking into account the limitations of colour film, looks very close to me to what I would think was the right shade for Garter Blue!

[Saint Johnstoun]

Further thought - when I mixed the paint to paint a WD 8F in Longmoor Military Railway blue to match my other LMR locos, once it was on it looked too light. However, comparing it later it looked just right. Paint colour sometimes changes on drying, also what was the undercoat? For example, two bus Companies used the same red paint but a different undercoat and the results are different!

[mick b]

Most people say that Precision Paints versions are the most accuratte shades. If that is true then their version is darker and richer than the shade Hornby use. Which appears to be the exact oppositte of Simons version.
As usual even modern paints and photography vary with light etc. I doubt very much that 70 year old paint found on Canada would be the same shade as it was originally painted, that would have faded in general use/abuse quite quickly.
As usual its your model use the colour you like, not to sure however if pink with green spots will look quite right

[S.A.C. Martin]

As usual even modern paints and photography vary with light etc. I doubt very much that 70 year old paint found on Canada would be the same shade as it was originally painted, that would have faded in general use/abuse quite quickly.

That's actually my point though Mick. I intend to have a few of these heavily weathered and it looks like the blue faded on the A4s to a lighter colour in service. Similar thing to corporate blue anyone?

I have always said that the pictures showing them in service, in bright sunlight shows a much brighter and lighter shade than anyone applies to their A4s and frankly I've always thought Precision's was too dark too. There are a number of publications with colour photographs of the A4s and none of them look anywhere near as dark as that on Hornby's A4s (or Bachmann's for that matter) unless they are in extreme shade.

SJ, the paint I had mixed up is based on a 1935 Bugatti race car's colour, of which original paint samples still exist in enthusiasts' hands. The primer applied is Humbrol's neutral grey acrylic. I think I will wait until the model is finished before I show any more pictures now.

[mick b]

As usual even modern paints and photography vary with light etc. I doubt very much that 70 year old paint found on Canada would be the same shade as it was originally painted, that would have faded in general use/abuse quite quickly.

That's actually my point though Mick. I intend to have a few of these heavily weathered and it looks like the blue faded on the A4s to a lighter colour in service. Similar thing to corporate blue anyone?

I have always said that the pictures showing them in service, in bright sunlight shows a much brighter and lighter shade than anyone applies to their A4s and frankly I've always thought Precision's was too dark too. There are a number of publications with colour photographs of the A4s and none of them look anywhere near as dark as that on Hornby's A4s (or Bachmann's for that matter) unless they are in extreme shade.

SJ, the paint I had mixed up is based on a 1935 Bugatti race car's colour, of which original paint samples still exist in enthusiasts' hands. The primer applied is Humbrol's neutral grey acrylic. I think I will wait until the model is finished before I show any more pictures now.

I cannot believe that the LNER allowed their premium Loco get to the state of faded Blue that BR suffered over a number of years of being washed in chemical washplants if that is the kind of shade you are refering too ? Dont forget the A4 's only carried Garter Blue for three to four years before going into Black hardly old paint and would have been repainted on major overhauls too. The Canada Blue depending on how far they scarped away paint layers may heve been post war, which would/may have been of poorer quality than post war too.

As to Bugatti Blue I have seen a number of preserved racing versions, all I have seen are similar in shade to the link I posted earlier

[S.A.C. Martin]

I cannot believe that the LNER allowed their premium Loco get to the state of faded Blue that BR suffered over a number of years of being washed in chemical washplants if that is the kind of shade you are refering too ?

You are taking me very literally Mick. I used that as an example of a colour which faded over time.

As to Bugatti Blue I have seen a number of preserved racing versions, all I have seen are similar in shade to the link I posted earlier

Yes, and actually the colour of my tender isn't very far off that when seen in decent light and in the flesh. However the one you linked to was a 1928 racer and there are variations further on from that through the 1930s up to the present day. I haven't just slapped on any old blue paint and have gone to some trouble to source a specific shade and have it mixed up.

As I say, I'll finish my prototype and you can be the judge from that point on.

I think that'll be the last time I put my head above the parapet for a while.

[James Harrison]

Has anyone seen page 55 of David Jenkinson's "Big Four in Colour"?

There are two colour images of prewar garter blue A4s there- Great Snipe ex-works in late summer 1937 and Sparrow Hawk in service in the summer of 1938.

To my eye the Bugatti blue on Simon's link to the racing car (what a beauty, by the by!) is a very close match to the garter blue shown on Great Snipe, issues of colour reproduction on computer screens and old colour film notwithstanding.

I cannot believe that the LNER allowed their premium Loco get to the state of faded Blue that BR suffered over a number of years of being washed in chemical washplants if that is the kind of shade you are refering too ? Dont forget the A4 's only carried Garter Blue for three to four years before going into Black hardly old paint and would have been repainted on major overhauls too. The Canada Blue depending on how far they scarped away paint layers may heve been post war, which would/may have been of poorer quality than post war too.

This neatly brings me on to the second photograph- Sparrow Hawk in the summer of 1938. It is interesting that despite the locomotive being less than a year old the paint is already weathering heavily. Road dirt flung up the valances, coal smuts along the length of the boiler top, more dirt working its way between the metal plates making up the streamlining. Yes, only dirt but what effect does it have on the paintwork before it gets cleaned off? (bear in mind that coal smoke and the like becomes slightly acidic when it comes into contact with water- as it might when the loco runs through a rain shower, for instance). The LNER may not have allowed their premium locos to run around with a shoddy paint job (pre-war at least) but at the same time evidence would suggest that no special measures were taken to preserve the standard of finish to the paintwork. Thus inevitably the paintwork would and apparently did suffer, quite quickly. Admittedly I am going on only a few 1930s colour photos but it's not as though there are plenty of those around in the first place.

On the following page is Empire of India in the summer of 1947. The blue appears darker at this date however frustratingly I can't be sure, as the two pre-war photos were taken in bright sunlight outdoors whilst the post-war image is on a bright day under a glass and iron roof, casting shadows that play havoc with discerning the colour (!)

I would concur with Simon's opinion that the garter blue on the real thing is much lighter than on the Hornby models.

[mick b]

This one looks almost like a Turqouise shade even more variation

http://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-vall ... 2769148804

[James Harrison]

Great image, Mick. I found the one I mentioned of Sparrow Hawk in the same stream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-vall ... 769148804/

[mick b]

This is a Bugatti I saw at Goodwood a couple of years ago streamined too

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... 4mm/page-2

Halfway down the page , note how the colour varies in the sunlight even with a modern digital camera.

[mick b]

Great image, Mick. I found the one I mentioned of Sparrow Hawk in the same stream:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-vall ... 769148804/

Yes a lovely shot, note the colour of the lead Teak Coach almost chocolate or even darker brown.

[2002EarlMarischal]

I assume the name "garter blue" comes from the "Order of the Garter".

Here is Prince William wearing the garter ribbon:-

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... niform.jpg

If the colour of that ribbon has remained the same since the 1930s then you probably have the shade of blue the LNER used.

We should all remember the royal connections so valued at the time - the Silver Jubilee, the Coronation etc.

Seems a compelling argument to me, much more so than the colour of a French car surely?

[Saint Johnstoun]

I think that your explanation is more likely Jim, than the Bugatti connection, as the whole point of the Coronation identity was to do with the forthcoming crowning of Edward VIII, which of course mainly due to a gentleman whose precursor was used to name a proposed locomotive design on the SR by a regular contributor to these forums, didn't happen and his brother became George VI! You will note that the 'other side' chose blue too; the predominant colour at the Abbey for the event was blue so....

Blue was traditionally the colour used to identify the Aristocracy, hence the term 'blue blood' (though dating from the flood as W. S. Gilbert puts it)!

And you will note that red wheels were also in vogue, there is a further connection there....

The Union Jack is of course red, white and blue and one should also note that a well known bus company in Scotland which was 25% owned by the LNER painted a number of vehicles red, white and blue for the Coronation! This was at the suggestion of the LNER member of the S.M.T. Board! I suspect therefore that the blue livery on the Coronation train may have come from other sources than Mr Gresley?

[2002EarlMarischal]

Agreed Allan, here is another photo of the Order of the Garter medal and ribbon:

[S.A.C. Martin]

This one looks almost like a Turqouise shade even more variation

http://www.flickr.com/photos/swift-vall ... 2769148804

With respect Mick, I cannot see the "turquoise" you're talking about? If anything it looks very similar to the shade I've used, perhaps even lighter than that I've used.

Lovely shot though, a nice reminder of what the A4s looked like when a bit work worn.