Hi guys,
I've been playing around with photoshop and came up with this. I would appreciate comments or suggestions for improvement. I'm playing to use this to produce some coaches in n gauge. Please keep in mind that this is a rough version at the moment.
Many thanks
Comments please
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:44 pm
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Atso,
Presumably you are making overlays for the carriage sides which are made out of some kind of clear material with a tumblehome.
The colour seems a bit too orange to me, I think it needs to bit a bit browner and I suggest that you try to find a coloured photo of the prototype, which may be difficult. In that case you need to find a preserved example. You also got colour variations as odd individual panels were replaced on works visits and the carriage was revarnished.
I have a copy of Historic Carriage Drawings Volume 1 LNER and Constituents by Nick Campling. Referring to this, I believe that you are modelling a Gresley 51ft 1.5 inch eight compartment Third. In which case there should be (about) 15" wide panels between each pair of windows between the doors. This is where the internal dividers between the compartments meet the sides and is common to all variations, except First class stock which has panels about 2 feet wide.
I hope these comments are helpful.
Colombo
Presumably you are making overlays for the carriage sides which are made out of some kind of clear material with a tumblehome.
The colour seems a bit too orange to me, I think it needs to bit a bit browner and I suggest that you try to find a coloured photo of the prototype, which may be difficult. In that case you need to find a preserved example. You also got colour variations as odd individual panels were replaced on works visits and the carriage was revarnished.
I have a copy of Historic Carriage Drawings Volume 1 LNER and Constituents by Nick Campling. Referring to this, I believe that you are modelling a Gresley 51ft 1.5 inch eight compartment Third. In which case there should be (about) 15" wide panels between each pair of windows between the doors. This is where the internal dividers between the compartments meet the sides and is common to all variations, except First class stock which has panels about 2 feet wide.
I hope these comments are helpful.
Colombo
Thanks for the comments Colombo,
I've tried to colour match the teak to a colour photo I've got of 'Sir Sam Fay' pulling a rake of teak coaches. The colour seems to be about right. However the problem with colour photos from the 1930 is that they don't always show colours correctly so I'm going to take your advice and darken them up a little.
You are correct that I'm going to print the sides onto clear plastic in an attempt to scratch build a rake of coaches on the cheap (dapols offerings look great and I will buy some teak coaches when they come out).
I've got Historic Carriage Drawings Volume 1 LNER as well and it is a great reference source (anybody without one I can highly recommend it!) and I have used the dimensions of the doors and windows to create this side image.
The side itself is actually going to be a third class coach from one of Gresley's quad sets. I've only got photographic evidence to go on (I can't even afford to get the Isinglass drawings right now) so I'm trying to create a representation rather than a scale model. I'm modelling in N gauge and my usual philosophy is if it looks right it is right. The reason behind the quad set is because I got a Langley N2 kit for Christmas and would like it to haul the set for my (yet to be built) layout.
Again thanks for the comments and I will post a new picture once I darken the teak.
I've tried to colour match the teak to a colour photo I've got of 'Sir Sam Fay' pulling a rake of teak coaches. The colour seems to be about right. However the problem with colour photos from the 1930 is that they don't always show colours correctly so I'm going to take your advice and darken them up a little.
You are correct that I'm going to print the sides onto clear plastic in an attempt to scratch build a rake of coaches on the cheap (dapols offerings look great and I will buy some teak coaches when they come out).
I've got Historic Carriage Drawings Volume 1 LNER as well and it is a great reference source (anybody without one I can highly recommend it!) and I have used the dimensions of the doors and windows to create this side image.
The side itself is actually going to be a third class coach from one of Gresley's quad sets. I've only got photographic evidence to go on (I can't even afford to get the Isinglass drawings right now) so I'm trying to create a representation rather than a scale model. I'm modelling in N gauge and my usual philosophy is if it looks right it is right. The reason behind the quad set is because I got a Langley N2 kit for Christmas and would like it to haul the set for my (yet to be built) layout.
Again thanks for the comments and I will post a new picture once I darken the teak.
Steve
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:44 pm
- Location: Derbyshire
- Contact:
Atso,
I stand corrected about the central panel between the windows. Currently the last remaining Quad Art set is undergoing restoration at Carnforth on behalf of the M&Gn Society, with the intention of running it on the North Norfolk Railway. It appears that it is due for completion in March 2007. I see that there is no central panel on this stock.
I refer you to their web site report on the project at: http://mandgn.co.uk/Galleryquad.html
Several photos of the carriages under restoration show the colour of the new teak panels very well, and if you want to show the set in that brand new condition, this would be a good guide for you. On the other hand, the excellent photos taken by J M Jarvis in 1954 published in On North Eastern Lines by Derek Huntris show just how dingy teak became in its latter years.
Colombo
I stand corrected about the central panel between the windows. Currently the last remaining Quad Art set is undergoing restoration at Carnforth on behalf of the M&Gn Society, with the intention of running it on the North Norfolk Railway. It appears that it is due for completion in March 2007. I see that there is no central panel on this stock.
I refer you to their web site report on the project at: http://mandgn.co.uk/Galleryquad.html
Several photos of the carriages under restoration show the colour of the new teak panels very well, and if you want to show the set in that brand new condition, this would be a good guide for you. On the other hand, the excellent photos taken by J M Jarvis in 1954 published in On North Eastern Lines by Derek Huntris show just how dingy teak became in its latter years.
Colombo
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richard
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
- Posts: 3390
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Atso: I'm not sure how flat the sides of the NGS Full Brake will be, but this might be a good subject as well. I'm not sure how I will recreate a proper teak grain.
I have the paint, but I've only used that on a CCT so far - luckily a nice simple non-grain colour!
Richard
I have the paint, but I've only used that on a CCT so far - luckily a nice simple non-grain colour!
Richard
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
LNER Encyclopedia
Thanks for the comments guys.
Colombo, I've seen pictures of the quad set under restoration, it still amazes me that, after all these years, people are still finding teak coaches to restore. I've darkened the teak on my artwork, however I might not be proceeding down this road after all. I recently won a pair of minitrix Gresley's on ebay had been dismantled and primed for a conversation project. When I got the package I was surprised to find that there was one side of a minitrix coach from a previous conversion project included. I'm going to attempt to mould the side and use it for parts to create my quad set.
As for the two coaches I have been unable to strip the primer coat so I am in the process of repainting them in teak. If possible I will post pictures of them once they are done. My method to date has been to paint the coach in yellow first and then paint the teak coach on top using an almost dry brush with thinned teak paint. The results to date have been encouraging.
Colombo, I've seen pictures of the quad set under restoration, it still amazes me that, after all these years, people are still finding teak coaches to restore. I've darkened the teak on my artwork, however I might not be proceeding down this road after all. I recently won a pair of minitrix Gresley's on ebay had been dismantled and primed for a conversation project. When I got the package I was surprised to find that there was one side of a minitrix coach from a previous conversion project included. I'm going to attempt to mould the side and use it for parts to create my quad set.
As for the two coaches I have been unable to strip the primer coat so I am in the process of repainting them in teak. If possible I will post pictures of them once they are done. My method to date has been to paint the coach in yellow first and then paint the teak coach on top using an almost dry brush with thinned teak paint. The results to date have been encouraging.
Steve
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rob
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:19 pm
- Location: Cork Ireland
Colombo,
Thanks for the quad-art link,I had no idea one had survived!What a superb job they are making of it,and a really helpful set of photos.Atso,note that the period photos of teak stock in black and white vary according to film type etc.I find Dukinfield did the best job on recording the grain structure of new builds,wheras Doncaster,from GNR days,used a film which made all teak stock look almost black!So look for Dukinfield officials for judging grain structure when painting.With Doncaster photos,the grain,which is so important to teak,is invisible in most of their officials.While teak,and the LNER would have used best Burma,not the African relatives such as Iroko, which is often marketed as "teak" nowadays,is generally yellowish/golden ,strong veins of grain can run to a dark reddish brown and even black.Though normally avoided in quality work,elements of knots can also be seen on some stock.Teak is a strong veined timber but varies widely from plank to plank-some coaches exhibit little grain from a distance,others are very striking.
Note also the following oddities of behaviour-teak tends to lighten in strong sunlight and become more uniformly golden,but the varnish will tend to yellow and produce a darker golden effect-combined with soot and dirt,older or long service stock will look darker with less grain.Ironically,softwoods darken-I have seen where teak,pine and iroko have,under varnish,matured to a stage where they are all golden,and only the differing grains tell them apart close up.The use of oxalic acid to restore colour to stripped timber also has an effect as the grain structure does not emerge so strongly-sanding,which looks likely on these restored quad-arts will restore the grain and colour more thoroughly,but in LNER days oxalic was used,presumably for speed and convenience.
In essence,you can have a very wide range of shades and grain effects on "teak" stock,varying with age and time from overhaul.If you are not confused enough already,generally ex NER stock had originally been painted and could not be stripped clean enough so was simply "Teak" brown paint,some pre group stock(possibly ex GCR and GER was mahogany,not teak,browner,less grain)and some steel stock was artistically painted in a "scumble" type artificial grained teak which was very effective when judged from photos!This is exactly the effect we are aiming for in miniature!In my opinion,unless you are modelling very new stock,quite a darkish golden brown is probably most common,often with very visible grain in places.The whole teak thing is probably the most difficult challenge for the keen LNER modeller and in N I think your photoshop experoments are a very viable and interesting approach.
Thanks for the quad-art link,I had no idea one had survived!What a superb job they are making of it,and a really helpful set of photos.Atso,note that the period photos of teak stock in black and white vary according to film type etc.I find Dukinfield did the best job on recording the grain structure of new builds,wheras Doncaster,from GNR days,used a film which made all teak stock look almost black!So look for Dukinfield officials for judging grain structure when painting.With Doncaster photos,the grain,which is so important to teak,is invisible in most of their officials.While teak,and the LNER would have used best Burma,not the African relatives such as Iroko, which is often marketed as "teak" nowadays,is generally yellowish/golden ,strong veins of grain can run to a dark reddish brown and even black.Though normally avoided in quality work,elements of knots can also be seen on some stock.Teak is a strong veined timber but varies widely from plank to plank-some coaches exhibit little grain from a distance,others are very striking.
Note also the following oddities of behaviour-teak tends to lighten in strong sunlight and become more uniformly golden,but the varnish will tend to yellow and produce a darker golden effect-combined with soot and dirt,older or long service stock will look darker with less grain.Ironically,softwoods darken-I have seen where teak,pine and iroko have,under varnish,matured to a stage where they are all golden,and only the differing grains tell them apart close up.The use of oxalic acid to restore colour to stripped timber also has an effect as the grain structure does not emerge so strongly-sanding,which looks likely on these restored quad-arts will restore the grain and colour more thoroughly,but in LNER days oxalic was used,presumably for speed and convenience.
In essence,you can have a very wide range of shades and grain effects on "teak" stock,varying with age and time from overhaul.If you are not confused enough already,generally ex NER stock had originally been painted and could not be stripped clean enough so was simply "Teak" brown paint,some pre group stock(possibly ex GCR and GER was mahogany,not teak,browner,less grain)and some steel stock was artistically painted in a "scumble" type artificial grained teak which was very effective when judged from photos!This is exactly the effect we are aiming for in miniature!In my opinion,unless you are modelling very new stock,quite a darkish golden brown is probably most common,often with very visible grain in places.The whole teak thing is probably the most difficult challenge for the keen LNER modeller and in N I think your photoshop experoments are a very viable and interesting approach.
Just in case anyone is interest I've almost completed my initial pass at the complete quad set drawings. I make no claim that they are to completely scale, but they look ok against the photos I've got.
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- Quad Set.jpg
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Steve