AT my daughters insistence I have acquired a Farish A4 (Mallard) in Garter Blue. I would like to build a layout that will be accurate to the period using this loco pulling an express passenger service and also a lot of local activity.
The only place I know on the ECML is South Queensferry, at the south end of the Forth Railway Bridge some 18 or 20km outside Edinburgh. I was based there working on and off during the 70's.
So I need to identify a place I can base a layout on (not a lot of space) which will have some local industry and for which reasonable photographs exist of the period. I am pretty happy to model anywhere.
Can anyone - suggest a place, suggest some books or resources for photographs or drawings?
I hope you don't mind my asking for all this help,
John
Modelling a place on the LNER
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
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Colombo
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JD,
Finding an authentic and fairly compact location to model where you can run an A4 in Garter Blue with valences, in which condition, they ran from only 1937 until about 1941, is an interesting task. particularly if you want to run other contempory locomotives as well.
The ECML tended to have few small stations and was mostly quadruple track and that seems to eliminate most of the route purely on practicality. In fact I cannot think of anywhere south of Newcastle. Perhaps someone else might. I do however have a few suggestions that may fit the bill.
In their early days the A4s were reserved for the very best trains and would not be cascaded down to secondary services. So I am looking for the routes of named trains off the ECML.
At first I thought of the Scarborough Flyer, but on checking, I found that the Pacific locomotives were changed at York, and the run to and from Scarborough was behind something like a B16. So the route from York to Scarborough is definitely out.
The West Riding Ltd ran from Leeds Central to Marylebone and in October 1937, 4495 "Golden Fleece" and 4496 "Golden Shuttle" were allocated to this service. These were in garter blue with valences. You could choose any station, such as Charlewalton, on the GC London extension. Other locomotives from the GF range that could be used include the V2, and A3. For freight you could use the Union Mills J11 and the GF J94 could be repainted in an industrial livery to work in your industrial sidings.
North of Leeds, expresses to Newcastle used the route via Harrogate joining the ECML at Northallerton. I have found a 1942 photo of garter blue 4463 "Sparrowhawk" on a Newcastle to Liverpool Express, but without valences. Harrogate is therefore a possibility, but you lack suitable locos for local passenger and goods working.
Finally, how about Goathland. This has possibilities as a model could represent the station in LNER days, BR days, with steam and green diesels, present day as preserved by the NYMR, with a garter blue A4 with valences in regular use, and finally as Adensfield as depicted on the TV soap Heartbeat.
You could use almost any locomotives that GF produce in the preservation guise. For BR days, the Standard CLass 4 2-6-4Ts would be ideal, with Black 5s and Crabs on holiday specials. There are still no freight locos for the NE though.
References:
LNER Country Stations by John Brodribb, Ian Allan
North Eastern Branchlines since 1925, by K Hoole , Ian Allan.
LNER/North Eastern Steam in Yorkshire by Donald Binns, Wyvern Publications
LNER Branchlines 1945 - 1965 by C J Cammell, OPC
I shall let someone else look north of the border. for you.
Colombo
Finding an authentic and fairly compact location to model where you can run an A4 in Garter Blue with valences, in which condition, they ran from only 1937 until about 1941, is an interesting task. particularly if you want to run other contempory locomotives as well.
The ECML tended to have few small stations and was mostly quadruple track and that seems to eliminate most of the route purely on practicality. In fact I cannot think of anywhere south of Newcastle. Perhaps someone else might. I do however have a few suggestions that may fit the bill.
In their early days the A4s were reserved for the very best trains and would not be cascaded down to secondary services. So I am looking for the routes of named trains off the ECML.
At first I thought of the Scarborough Flyer, but on checking, I found that the Pacific locomotives were changed at York, and the run to and from Scarborough was behind something like a B16. So the route from York to Scarborough is definitely out.
The West Riding Ltd ran from Leeds Central to Marylebone and in October 1937, 4495 "Golden Fleece" and 4496 "Golden Shuttle" were allocated to this service. These were in garter blue with valences. You could choose any station, such as Charlewalton, on the GC London extension. Other locomotives from the GF range that could be used include the V2, and A3. For freight you could use the Union Mills J11 and the GF J94 could be repainted in an industrial livery to work in your industrial sidings.
North of Leeds, expresses to Newcastle used the route via Harrogate joining the ECML at Northallerton. I have found a 1942 photo of garter blue 4463 "Sparrowhawk" on a Newcastle to Liverpool Express, but without valences. Harrogate is therefore a possibility, but you lack suitable locos for local passenger and goods working.
Finally, how about Goathland. This has possibilities as a model could represent the station in LNER days, BR days, with steam and green diesels, present day as preserved by the NYMR, with a garter blue A4 with valences in regular use, and finally as Adensfield as depicted on the TV soap Heartbeat.
You could use almost any locomotives that GF produce in the preservation guise. For BR days, the Standard CLass 4 2-6-4Ts would be ideal, with Black 5s and Crabs on holiday specials. There are still no freight locos for the NE though.
References:
LNER Country Stations by John Brodribb, Ian Allan
North Eastern Branchlines since 1925, by K Hoole , Ian Allan.
LNER/North Eastern Steam in Yorkshire by Donald Binns, Wyvern Publications
LNER Branchlines 1945 - 1965 by C J Cammell, OPC
I shall let someone else look north of the border. for you.
Colombo
Hi John.
I can't give you any specifics, but have you thought of looking at secondary main lines alongside the ECML. Many of these routes were used as the alternative ECML when track maintenance or engineering works meant that the ECMl was not used.
I have a friend that has made a model of Church Fenton (situated between York and Leeds), this may not be suitable for you as it has 2 diverging double track lines to Leeds and Normanton, however the layout runs with diverted trains from the ECML and as a result has A4s, Coronation sets and so on. This may not be strictly accurate, but the engineering works does give an excuse for almost anything.
We even run a North Eastern overhead electric - I will tease you for a while on how we can justify/explain that for a little while.
Andy
I can't give you any specifics, but have you thought of looking at secondary main lines alongside the ECML. Many of these routes were used as the alternative ECML when track maintenance or engineering works meant that the ECMl was not used.
I have a friend that has made a model of Church Fenton (situated between York and Leeds), this may not be suitable for you as it has 2 diverging double track lines to Leeds and Normanton, however the layout runs with diverted trains from the ECML and as a result has A4s, Coronation sets and so on. This may not be strictly accurate, but the engineering works does give an excuse for almost anything.
We even run a North Eastern overhead electric - I will tease you for a while on how we can justify/explain that for a little while.
Andy
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jdtoronto
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Thank you both Colombo and Andy!
Aidensfield eh? Well I remember it, I haven't watched heartbeat in some yearsbut I do recall watching the first couple of series of it with fond memories of my time in the UK from 1970 - 1983. Although I spent very little time in Yorkshire I used to drive down from South Queensferry when I was based there.
Interestingly some of the place names are echoed here around Toronto - Whitby, Pickering, Scarborough.
I know very little about the ECML, and have even less information! Any suggested books on the area? Maps of the railway system(s)? I am not going to be a stickler for realism, but I would like to make this layout somewhat authentic, or at least believable. COlombo, I have added your book references to those I am already searching for, or purchasing. Like most of us I suppose I do have to limit my book buying, but only a little! Luckilly my wife is as much a book lover as I am.
John
(John Day, Toronto, Canada, originally from Melbourne, Australia)
Aidensfield eh? Well I remember it, I haven't watched heartbeat in some yearsbut I do recall watching the first couple of series of it with fond memories of my time in the UK from 1970 - 1983. Although I spent very little time in Yorkshire I used to drive down from South Queensferry when I was based there.
Interestingly some of the place names are echoed here around Toronto - Whitby, Pickering, Scarborough.
I know very little about the ECML, and have even less information! Any suggested books on the area? Maps of the railway system(s)? I am not going to be a stickler for realism, but I would like to make this layout somewhat authentic, or at least believable. COlombo, I have added your book references to those I am already searching for, or purchasing. Like most of us I suppose I do have to limit my book buying, but only a little! Luckilly my wife is as much a book lover as I am.
John
(John Day, Toronto, Canada, originally from Melbourne, Australia)
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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John,
Both Andy and myself originate from York. My memories of the railway system only go back to the early fifties, and so I choose to model the period 1957 to 1963 (ish). You are looking for an authentic location in which to run a garter blue A4 with valences, which puts your proposed layout either into the 1937 to 1941 period, or else into some sort of preservation scenario.
Most of my reference books relate to the 1950s and 60s and I have very little in my library that illustrates the ECML in the earlier period, but I do have two books that may help you. They both include many highly atmospheric photos from the pre-WWII period.
LNER Reflections by Nigel Harris, is a collection of photographs from the BBC Hulton Picture Library., published by SLP. ISBN 0947971.
The Golden Age of British Steam Railways from the 1920s to the late 50s by Collin Garratt, on thwe work of the Rev. AWV Mace, published by Sunburst Books ISBN 1-85778-108-2
Colombo
Both Andy and myself originate from York. My memories of the railway system only go back to the early fifties, and so I choose to model the period 1957 to 1963 (ish). You are looking for an authentic location in which to run a garter blue A4 with valences, which puts your proposed layout either into the 1937 to 1941 period, or else into some sort of preservation scenario.
Most of my reference books relate to the 1950s and 60s and I have very little in my library that illustrates the ECML in the earlier period, but I do have two books that may help you. They both include many highly atmospheric photos from the pre-WWII period.
LNER Reflections by Nigel Harris, is a collection of photographs from the BBC Hulton Picture Library., published by SLP. ISBN 0947971.
The Golden Age of British Steam Railways from the 1920s to the late 50s by Collin Garratt, on thwe work of the Rev. AWV Mace, published by Sunburst Books ISBN 1-85778-108-2
Colombo
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richard
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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John : I remember your original query on the N-Gauge listserver.
Is your engine in Garter Blue or BR Express Blue?
BR Express Blue is slightly darker. If Garter Blue, then it should say LNER on it - BR didn't use Garter Blue, although it was in BR ownership as Garter Blue before repainting. (Mallard is currently in Garter Blue)
I think the A4s look attractive in both liveries.
Richard
Is your engine in Garter Blue or BR Express Blue?
BR Express Blue is slightly darker. If Garter Blue, then it should say LNER on it - BR didn't use Garter Blue, although it was in BR ownership as Garter Blue before repainting. (Mallard is currently in Garter Blue)
I think the A4s look attractive in both liveries.
Richard
Richard Marsden
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jdtoronto
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Richard,
I don't physically have it here. But in fact I have been describing it as Garter Blue when in fact it is BR Express Blue! The number on the cab side is 60022, So that would make it post 1948 then? I know she was de-comissioned in 1963. Do you know when she was painted Express Blue?
So far I have built three layouts, two were totally freelanced designs and one is a fantasy layout for Brenda, the Princess Brenda railroad complete with dragons and a castle with a moat.
I have never done a protoype based layout, and in fact have never been inclined to, not with the sort of motive power that is common here, it just doesn't inspire me. But as a kid growing up I remeber the Mallard story in a book my dad had. When I lived in the UK I always loved wtaching trains and this single loco seems to be crying out for something with a hint of authenticity! I think I would like to be able to say "and this is Mallard, the fastest steam loco ever and here she is, 25 years after her record breaking run still at work pulling an express train". For whatever reason I get a warm feeling about this loco and I would like to make a layout that encapsulates a believable scene, maybe just one or two signature buildings I dont know. Sheesh! Here I am at 52 getting all sentimental over a loco I have never seen in real life, just a distant memory in a book as a kid.
As you might guess, I am at a bit of a loss at where to start!
John
I don't physically have it here. But in fact I have been describing it as Garter Blue when in fact it is BR Express Blue! The number on the cab side is 60022, So that would make it post 1948 then? I know she was de-comissioned in 1963. Do you know when she was painted Express Blue?
So far I have built three layouts, two were totally freelanced designs and one is a fantasy layout for Brenda, the Princess Brenda railroad complete with dragons and a castle with a moat.
I have never done a protoype based layout, and in fact have never been inclined to, not with the sort of motive power that is common here, it just doesn't inspire me. But as a kid growing up I remeber the Mallard story in a book my dad had. When I lived in the UK I always loved wtaching trains and this single loco seems to be crying out for something with a hint of authenticity! I think I would like to be able to say "and this is Mallard, the fastest steam loco ever and here she is, 25 years after her record breaking run still at work pulling an express train". For whatever reason I get a warm feeling about this loco and I would like to make a layout that encapsulates a believable scene, maybe just one or two signature buildings I dont know. Sheesh! Here I am at 52 getting all sentimental over a loco I have never seen in real life, just a distant memory in a book as a kid.
As you might guess, I am at a bit of a loss at where to start!
John
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Colombo
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John,
I would expect that the Express blue livery only lasted from 1948 until about 1950, but I can't be sure of the exact dates for Mallard. For that period, you still need teak carriages.
For authenticity, your other locos would have to have "British Railways" in full on the tender, or else the earlier totem commonly described as "the lion on the unicycle".
Colombo
I would expect that the Express blue livery only lasted from 1948 until about 1950, but I can't be sure of the exact dates for Mallard. For that period, you still need teak carriages.
For authenticity, your other locos would have to have "British Railways" in full on the tender, or else the earlier totem commonly described as "the lion on the unicycle".
Colombo
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richard
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John: I did post the dates in that thread on the ngauge listserver. I don't have the book handy but will look it up again. It is in the RCTS book in a nice foldout table at the back (all the A4s are listed and there's a similar table for the A1/A3s). I think Mannion's "Streaks" also has an appendix with the livery/etc modification dates.
Richard
Richard
Richard Marsden
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richard
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Here we go: Sept. 1949 to July 1952.
For completeness:
Built: March 1938 (with Kylchap double chimney + Garter Blue)
LNER Wartime Black: June 1942
First 1946 Number: 607 (never carried)
Second 1946 Number: 22 Sept. 1946
LNER Garter Blue: March 1948
75% cutoff: March 1948
BR Number: 60022 Sept. 1949
BR Express Blue: Sept. 1949 (Never received BR Purple)
BR Green: July 1952
Withdrawn: April 1963
Richard
For completeness:
Built: March 1938 (with Kylchap double chimney + Garter Blue)
LNER Wartime Black: June 1942
First 1946 Number: 607 (never carried)
Second 1946 Number: 22 Sept. 1946
LNER Garter Blue: March 1948
75% cutoff: March 1948
BR Number: 60022 Sept. 1949
BR Express Blue: Sept. 1949 (Never received BR Purple)
BR Green: July 1952
Withdrawn: April 1963
Richard
Richard Marsden
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jdtoronto
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Got it;
Thanks Richard and Colombo.
Sept 1949 to July 1952.
I am currently awaiting delivery of copies of the Manion book, and the RTCS book volume 2A. I have also bought totally unknown to me books on what seem like related subjects or Mallard herself.
Right now I am watching some Teaks on EBAY. Somebody here in Canada has a rake of three new MiniTrix ones! Any suggestions on what they might be worth?
Gentlemen, my apologies if I sometimes seem vague or forgetful. Right now I am working 16 hours days and the only thing keeping me sane is a few minutes here and there dreaming about these trains.
John
Thanks Richard and Colombo.
Sept 1949 to July 1952.
I am currently awaiting delivery of copies of the Manion book, and the RTCS book volume 2A. I have also bought totally unknown to me books on what seem like related subjects or Mallard herself.
Right now I am watching some Teaks on EBAY. Somebody here in Canada has a rake of three new MiniTrix ones! Any suggestions on what they might be worth?
Gentlemen, my apologies if I sometimes seem vague or forgetful. Right now I am working 16 hours days and the only thing keeping me sane is a few minutes here and there dreaming about these trains.
John
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richard
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Minitrix Teaks?
Too much!
They're apparently a lot better than the generic Farish offering. Both are out of production, but the Minitrix Teaks demand a much higher value (tens of pounds iirc). They also did a few in Maroon and these are like hen's teeth.
I'm waiting, waiting, very patiently for new models. Farish and Dapol - are you listening?
For my BR-era V2, I'm acquiring a rake of blood&custard Mk1s. Farish have been re-releasing these with incremental improvements.
Richard
Too much!
They're apparently a lot better than the generic Farish offering. Both are out of production, but the Minitrix Teaks demand a much higher value (tens of pounds iirc). They also did a few in Maroon and these are like hen's teeth.
I'm waiting, waiting, very patiently for new models. Farish and Dapol - are you listening?
For my BR-era V2, I'm acquiring a rake of blood&custard Mk1s. Farish have been re-releasing these with incremental improvements.
Richard
Richard Marsden
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jdtoronto
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Richard,
A bit of ebay research:
Some Cavendish 'Teak' kits sold for about £20 each a week or two back. A goodly collection of Farish opnes sold for £3.50 to about £7 each. Their is also a batch of six Farish ones closing tomorrow, I think I will bid on those!
COACHES:
Okay, the Teaks are the period piece, but what period? What about the Blood and Custard, they are slightly later? And the Maroon?
As always, thank you so much for the wonderful information.
John
A bit of ebay research:
Some Cavendish 'Teak' kits sold for about £20 each a week or two back. A goodly collection of Farish opnes sold for £3.50 to about £7 each. Their is also a batch of six Farish ones closing tomorrow, I think I will bid on those!
COACHES:
Okay, the Teaks are the period piece, but what period? What about the Blood and Custard, they are slightly later? And the Maroon?
As always, thank you so much for the wonderful information.
John
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Colombo
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John,
Its usual to specify a time period for your layout and run whatever could be seen at that time. For example, my own is from 1957 to 1963 which allows me to run blood and custard as well as maroon carriages, pre-grouping and standard locos, and both the black and early green diesels. Also steam was still mostly in charge on the ECML at the beginning of this period. There are definitely "no blue diesels!", the battle cry at our club.
In your case you could specify 1950 to 1957, which would allow you to run teak and blood and custard carriages, but not teak and maroon together, it hardly ever happened. Your express blue livery and BR green livery with the early totem were also seen together.
You don't have to do this of course, its up to you, but you did say you wanted authenticity.
Colombo
Its usual to specify a time period for your layout and run whatever could be seen at that time. For example, my own is from 1957 to 1963 which allows me to run blood and custard as well as maroon carriages, pre-grouping and standard locos, and both the black and early green diesels. Also steam was still mostly in charge on the ECML at the beginning of this period. There are definitely "no blue diesels!", the battle cry at our club.
In your case you could specify 1950 to 1957, which would allow you to run teak and blood and custard carriages, but not teak and maroon together, it hardly ever happened. Your express blue livery and BR green livery with the early totem were also seen together.
You don't have to do this of course, its up to you, but you did say you wanted authenticity.
Colombo
Hi John.
Some suggestions as to stations that you could investigatel, I spend my holidays in Northumberland, and 2 places spring to mind.
Berwick-upon-Tweed is a fairly compact station situated at the end of the Royal Border Bridge, although the steam shed was a mile or so to the south at Tweedmouth. The station served the local branches to Coldstream and Duns (Kelso?) and also the Eyemouth branch. The bridge would make a stunning model if you have enough space.
Not far away may give you a better option – Alnmouth. Alnmouth is on the ECML on a section that is double track, it is a junction station with a branch to Alnwick. There were 2 platforms giving 2 main line platform faces and the branchline face. Directly behind the branch platform was a 2-road engine shed, which provided motive power for the branch and ECML stations in the area. Alnmouth and Alnwick feature in a DVD/Video – ‘North of Newcastle’ which covers the area from Newcastle up to Edinburgh. Most of it filmed in BR days in colour, with a very small portion of late LNER footage – a passing train (V2 if memory serves me correctly) and an assortment of teak coaches. Highly recommended viewing. I bought my copy on VHS several years ago, but saw it on DVD at a recent model show in the UK.
If you are still looking for an actual location these 2 locations may be worth further investigation.
Hope we haven't confused you too much or made your task greater than you thought.
Andy
Some suggestions as to stations that you could investigatel, I spend my holidays in Northumberland, and 2 places spring to mind.
Berwick-upon-Tweed is a fairly compact station situated at the end of the Royal Border Bridge, although the steam shed was a mile or so to the south at Tweedmouth. The station served the local branches to Coldstream and Duns (Kelso?) and also the Eyemouth branch. The bridge would make a stunning model if you have enough space.
Not far away may give you a better option – Alnmouth. Alnmouth is on the ECML on a section that is double track, it is a junction station with a branch to Alnwick. There were 2 platforms giving 2 main line platform faces and the branchline face. Directly behind the branch platform was a 2-road engine shed, which provided motive power for the branch and ECML stations in the area. Alnmouth and Alnwick feature in a DVD/Video – ‘North of Newcastle’ which covers the area from Newcastle up to Edinburgh. Most of it filmed in BR days in colour, with a very small portion of late LNER footage – a passing train (V2 if memory serves me correctly) and an assortment of teak coaches. Highly recommended viewing. I bought my copy on VHS several years ago, but saw it on DVD at a recent model show in the UK.
If you are still looking for an actual location these 2 locations may be worth further investigation.
Hope we haven't confused you too much or made your task greater than you thought.
Andy