Hi, I am well on with scratch building an O gauge T1 tank, but I am looking for some further information. Does anyone out there know how the outside cylinder slide bar was oriented with respect to alignment with the outside driving rod? I have lots of pictures, Yeadon's Register, NER Locomotives by Ken Hoole and lots of other pictures of the T1, but all fail to answer the question on orientation of the outside slide bar?
Thanks David
T1 Scratchbuild O Gauge
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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David,
You have a lot of books and so I hesitate to ask, but do you have "An Illustrated History of NER Engines by Ken Hoole. This has an excellent drawing of a T engine with a sectional elevation and a sectional plan view the latter shows very little clearance indeed between the slide bars and the coupling rod.
If you do not have this drawing please let me know.
Colombo
You have a lot of books and so I hesitate to ask, but do you have "An Illustrated History of NER Engines by Ken Hoole. This has an excellent drawing of a T engine with a sectional elevation and a sectional plan view the latter shows very little clearance indeed between the slide bars and the coupling rod.
If you do not have this drawing please let me know.
Colombo
Hi Colombo,
Yes I have the book you mention, in fact the drawing you reference was my starting point for the model. I am now well on with the body and chassis (apart from fine detail like rails which I will leave until last). Unitl the last week it always looked from the diagram you mention and nearly all photos I had studied that the slide bar was in direct alignment vertically over the piston rod and coupling rod, but within the last few days I have found a couple of diagrams showing that at the height of rotation on the driving wheel, the outside coupling rod goes behind(!) the slide bar, with a clearence on the real prototype of some fingernail (from a child)!
I can't believe the engineers did this without a reason that may not be obvious from the drawing and photos.
I am trying to attach a photo file to this post showing what I mean.
One puzzeled model engineer...
Yes I have the book you mention, in fact the drawing you reference was my starting point for the model. I am now well on with the body and chassis (apart from fine detail like rails which I will leave until last). Unitl the last week it always looked from the diagram you mention and nearly all photos I had studied that the slide bar was in direct alignment vertically over the piston rod and coupling rod, but within the last few days I have found a couple of diagrams showing that at the height of rotation on the driving wheel, the outside coupling rod goes behind(!) the slide bar, with a clearence on the real prototype of some fingernail (from a child)!
I can't believe the engineers did this without a reason that may not be obvious from the drawing and photos.
I am trying to attach a photo file to this post showing what I mean.
One puzzeled model engineer...
- Attachments
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- t1-outside slide bar.jpg
- Close-up of T1 outside motion and slide bar
- (28.33 KiB) Downloaded 461 times
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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David,
I thought you were building the NER T1, not the NER Class X which became the LNER T1, my mistake
Thanks for the photo. If someone had shown me this as a broken down loco, I would have believed them. The piston rod does not appear to be in alignment with the cylinder, as if the slide bar motion bracket had broken.
I have found T1 photos in:
Bolger's BR Steam Motive Power Depots NER,
Geoffrey Hill's The Worsdells - A Quaker engineering dynasty
O S Nock Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway.
None of these photos show the driving rod in the upper position..its all a plot to confuse us! I think for posed photographs they liked to get the valve gear in the best position to show the locomotive in the best light. If this isthe case here, I can see now why they would have avoided the very postion that we are looking for.
Colombo
I thought you were building the NER T1, not the NER Class X which became the LNER T1, my mistake
Thanks for the photo. If someone had shown me this as a broken down loco, I would have believed them. The piston rod does not appear to be in alignment with the cylinder, as if the slide bar motion bracket had broken.
I have found T1 photos in:
Bolger's BR Steam Motive Power Depots NER,
Geoffrey Hill's The Worsdells - A Quaker engineering dynasty
O S Nock Locomotives of the North Eastern Railway.
None of these photos show the driving rod in the upper position..its all a plot to confuse us! I think for posed photographs they liked to get the valve gear in the best position to show the locomotive in the best light. If this isthe case here, I can see now why they would have avoided the very postion that we are looking for.
Colombo
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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David,
I have found a T1 photo in Derek Huntress' On North Eastern Lines.
This shows the Driver's RHS crank pin at 10.00 O'clock and the driving rod just about to "collide" with the slide bar. This a very clear and well lit colour photo and I would say that the piston rod appears to be cranked to bring it out sideways. This would allow the slide bars to be mounted further out from the frames and then the little end of the connecting rod could be mounted well behind the cross head.
Like you say, very strange indeed,
Colombo
I have found a T1 photo in Derek Huntress' On North Eastern Lines.
This shows the Driver's RHS crank pin at 10.00 O'clock and the driving rod just about to "collide" with the slide bar. This a very clear and well lit colour photo and I would say that the piston rod appears to be cranked to bring it out sideways. This would allow the slide bars to be mounted further out from the frames and then the little end of the connecting rod could be mounted well behind the cross head.
Like you say, very strange indeed,
Colombo
Colombo
Thanks for the help so far, I thought I was going crazy all by myself on this one. Looks like you have a few books that I haven't acquired yet so thanks for the titles, I will try and track them down.
In the meantime - when you say you think the piston rod appears to be cranked, are you meaning you believe it to be set at an angle in the horizontal plane so that the supporting slide bar is literally in a fixed position slightly in front of the connecting rod. This description would probably make more sense if you consider a diagram of the cylinder, piston rod, etc from directly above. I ask as this is currently my best guess. Or do you think some element of the makeup is swiveling in an unnatural way?
I have two photos confirming the coupling rod goes behind the end of the slide bar, so I know the photographer is not playing tricks. I would love to see the colour photo you have found.
David
Thanks for the help so far, I thought I was going crazy all by myself on this one. Looks like you have a few books that I haven't acquired yet so thanks for the titles, I will try and track them down.
In the meantime - when you say you think the piston rod appears to be cranked, are you meaning you believe it to be set at an angle in the horizontal plane so that the supporting slide bar is literally in a fixed position slightly in front of the connecting rod. This description would probably make more sense if you consider a diagram of the cylinder, piston rod, etc from directly above. I ask as this is currently my best guess. Or do you think some element of the makeup is swiveling in an unnatural way?
I have two photos confirming the coupling rod goes behind the end of the slide bar, so I know the photographer is not playing tricks. I would love to see the colour photo you have found.
David
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richard
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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I've found two more pictures.
They're in RCTS "Locomotives of the LNER" Part 9B.
Figures 23 and 24. Both (esp. 24) have shading that make it look like the slide bar is bent outwards a little, but in the other pictures (with the con rod near the bottom of the images - strange how that's the most popular pose!) it looks straight.
Compared to the above picture, I don't think these two pictures add any more, although Fig. 24 is of the right side.
Fig. 23 is No. 9915 at Dairycoates in 1947
Fig. 24 is No. 1353 at Darlington shed in 1934
Can't see anything in the text that describes the arrangement. The RCTS books often discuss unusual valve arrangements.
Richard
They're in RCTS "Locomotives of the LNER" Part 9B.
Figures 23 and 24. Both (esp. 24) have shading that make it look like the slide bar is bent outwards a little, but in the other pictures (with the con rod near the bottom of the images - strange how that's the most popular pose!) it looks straight.
Compared to the above picture, I don't think these two pictures add any more, although Fig. 24 is of the right side.
Fig. 23 is No. 9915 at Dairycoates in 1947
Fig. 24 is No. 1353 at Darlington shed in 1934
Can't see anything in the text that describes the arrangement. The RCTS books often discuss unusual valve arrangements.
Richard
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
LNER Encyclopedia
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Colombo
- LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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David,
Have a look for this months Railway Bylines magazine.
There is a long article about T1s with 10 photographs including a more extreme example of the driving rod crossing the slidebar. All their allocations, repairs and mods are also listed.
The photo that you included above is also used, I think. Is it the Transport Treasury photo of 69910 in York shed?
It is rather sad to have to report that I have underlined 6 of the 8 T1s remaining in my 1957 Combined, but I don't remember any of them. I probably saw them on Selby or York shed in 1957/8. Too young for them to register, I suspect.
Colombo
Have a look for this months Railway Bylines magazine.
There is a long article about T1s with 10 photographs including a more extreme example of the driving rod crossing the slidebar. All their allocations, repairs and mods are also listed.
The photo that you included above is also used, I think. Is it the Transport Treasury photo of 69910 in York shed?
It is rather sad to have to report that I have underlined 6 of the 8 T1s remaining in my 1957 Combined, but I don't remember any of them. I probably saw them on Selby or York shed in 1957/8. Too young for them to register, I suspect.
Colombo
Colombo,
Excellent call. I tracked down Bylines and there are some good photos. Yes the photo is a Treasury number.
I have now settled that the slide for sure sits outside the centreline of the piston and drive coupling rod. I have actually modeled this now creating a crosshead to reflect this and I suspect when mounted on the model from the same angles as the photos, will look the same.
I have organised a visit to the Ken Hoole Research centre as the online catalogue lists a T1 engineering diagram, so hopefully this will confirm what I have already opted to model.
In addition, I have just taken delivery of drawings of the T1 from Isinglass and these show a detail that has also been alluding me - the brake arrangement that on all photos and drawings I have shows nothing more than the shoes. Anyone out there got any info or pictures on the brake cylinders and the connecting arrangement?
Many Thanks - David
Excellent call. I tracked down Bylines and there are some good photos. Yes the photo is a Treasury number.
I have now settled that the slide for sure sits outside the centreline of the piston and drive coupling rod. I have actually modeled this now creating a crosshead to reflect this and I suspect when mounted on the model from the same angles as the photos, will look the same.
I have organised a visit to the Ken Hoole Research centre as the online catalogue lists a T1 engineering diagram, so hopefully this will confirm what I have already opted to model.
In addition, I have just taken delivery of drawings of the T1 from Isinglass and these show a detail that has also been alluding me - the brake arrangement that on all photos and drawings I have shows nothing more than the shoes. Anyone out there got any info or pictures on the brake cylinders and the connecting arrangement?
Many Thanks - David
Well my friends, on Monday this week I paid my first ever visit to the Ken Hoole research Centre in Darlington - and I will be going back. They have a small but excellent collection of original blueprints and copies of the original engineering general arrangement diagrams for a number of NER and LNER locos. The research centre is based at Darlington North Road train mueseum on site of the previous Darlington loco works and where they are building the new A1 Tornado. Anyway, I digress...
They have a copy of the NER X Class LNER Class T1 general arrangement diagram from 1909, which I duely paid £6 for a copy of (dimensions some 2 metres by a metre - it is not small). This diagram clearly shows the elusive answer to the question. The slide bar is actually 6 inches wide and is mounted at each corner by a bolt. All photos we have seen and discussed here only ever show the outside bolt. And guess what, the slide bar is actually profiled between the two rear bolts to allow the coupling rod to rise between the two mounting bolts. The whole of the slide bar is vertically in perfect alignment with the cross head, piston rod and drive coupling rod. Mystery solved - see diagram.
They have a copy of the NER X Class LNER Class T1 general arrangement diagram from 1909, which I duely paid £6 for a copy of (dimensions some 2 metres by a metre - it is not small). This diagram clearly shows the elusive answer to the question. The slide bar is actually 6 inches wide and is mounted at each corner by a bolt. All photos we have seen and discussed here only ever show the outside bolt. And guess what, the slide bar is actually profiled between the two rear bolts to allow the coupling rod to rise between the two mounting bolts. The whole of the slide bar is vertically in perfect alignment with the cross head, piston rod and drive coupling rod. Mystery solved - see diagram.
- Attachments
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- IMG_3616 small copy.jpg
- photo of original general arrangement drawing for NER Class X
- (99.82 KiB) Downloaded 331 times
