The LNER Encyclopedia

Since last year I am building a GCR/LNER J10 loco with the DJH white metal kit as a starting point. I bought the kit from Sherwood Models back in the 90's, so my kit should have been finished a long time ago, but there were more projects. It's the first complete loco I build, after having built and rebuilt some loco chassis.

I posted most of my proceedings on our Dutch forum:

http://forum.beneluxspoor.net/index.php ... 691.0.html
It's all in Dutch, but it gives the impression.

I hope there are some people on this forum that know a lot more about J10's than I do, because I have some questions to ask.

The kit is supplied with the larger 4000g tender, which was pulled by only 66 GCR 9H engines (tender swaps not included). All other locos were built with 3080g tenders, and this means you can not build just any of the J9's and the other J10's unless someone finds a photograph of one with a 4000g tender.

The DJH kit lacks quite some detail, so I'm trying to add as much detail as possible, like thicker connecting rods, brake hangers, roof supports, lamp irons, sandpipes, better washout plugs etc., and have also erased everything that reminds of the X04, for which it was designed.
I am trying to make it into a nice looking little loco with a Robinson chimney (with rivets), unencased Ramsbottom safety valves (I bought some nice brass ones on Ebay), smokebox without rivets etc. It is to depict a ca. 1925 loco, not (yet) converted to the LNER loading gauge (I'm not so fond of the flowerpot chimney), but renumbered by the LNER on the tender or even on the cabside.

My reference works are Yeadons no. 45, the RCTS no. 5 green book, and Locomotives Illustrated no. 156. I still didnt manage to find the right loco on a picture, sofar I have found no. 807 in 1922 (LI 156), and 5787 in BR days (internet). Also no. 5806 might fit the bill, but I don't have a picture. I found a nice picture of no. 5644 in Yeadon's, which was almost right, but it appeared to be a 9D (J10/1) engine with the 3080g tender.

I would very much appreciate to get some help on the following:

Where can I find a picture of a pre-1930 J10/3 with a Robinson chimney, unencased Ramsbottom safety valves, a 4000g tender and a smokebox without rivets?

I might also add some detail to the cab backhead. I think the cab can be improved, but so far I couldn't find a picture of one.
What colour was the cab interior and where can I find a picture of a J9 or J10 cab?

There's also no picture of the back of the tender. What did it look like? Are there steps? Where do I put the lamp irons?

Thank you in advance,

Leen.

I'll see what pictures I have Leen. Nice to hear from you again. I still intend to build my P2 kit......some time!
Graeme King

E-mail sent to you Leen.

There is a picture of a J10 in the "Robinsons Locomotives" book: this is No. 134 built 1902, which was rebuilt with a Class 9J large boiler in 1908. In 1924 it reverted back to its original boiler and class. It has the tender that you are looking for, however, with two coal rails. In the "Green Book" it says that the Class was concentrated on the ex-GCR in Lancashire and the Cheshire Lines towards the end of the nineteen thirties, so I googled Cheshire Lines Committee and came up with a picture of Walton Shed: http://lenpentin2.20fr.com/. There's a picture of No. 130 and the back of the tender you are building, I believe,

Peter

Hi,

Most pictures I am aware of show 9H locos in their original guises, which isnt much help for a 1920s modeller. However, this photo is quite a good one of J10 in the condition you describe above (although it has been 'graced' with a flowerpot chimney)

http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/L220.jpg

I cannot find any backhead photos in the (published) sources I have to hand, but maybe it would be worth pointing out that the 9H used GCR Standard No' 1 boiler, which could be found on a great number of locos of similar vintage (e.g the most numerous GCR 0-6-2 types) Same goes for the 3080 tender too.

Will

Thanks to all for your help and your pictures.

Peter, your pictures will help me a lot to improve the back of the tender. They are the only pictures taken from the back of a J9 or J10 that I have seen.

Will, that no. 5798 is almost right, but it has the wrong chimney, and to me it looks it has the smaller tender.
According to Yeadon it got a "single chimney to drawing 13685" in the summer of 1922, and was altered to LNE gauge in april 1925.
If that single 13685 chimney is a Robinson's one, that would still make the time span a bit short.

I will see if I can find a cab backhead picture of a N4/5.

Leen.

leen3737 wrote:The kit is supplied with the larger 4000g tender, which was pulled by only 66 GCR 9H engines (tender swaps not included). All other locos were built with 3080g tenders, and this means you can not build just any of the J9's and the other J10's unless someone finds a photograph of one with a 4000g tender.

You can't build anything other than the 9H with the 4000g tender because the cab side sheets were cut to match the tender sides.

Where can I find a picture of a pre-1930 J10/3 with a Robinson chimney, unencased Ramsbottom safety valves, a 4000g tender and a smokebox without rivets?

Locomotives Illustrated has a photo of two of them 807 and 5810

I might also add some detail to the cab backhead. I think the cab can be improved, but so far I couldn't find a picture of one. What colour was the cab interior and where can I find a picture of a J9 or J10 cab?

There is a photo in RCTS vol5 of a J11 cab interior. This is laid out exactly the same as in a J10 except the boiler is a little bigger. Robinson was strong on standardisation.

Thanks, Bill, and no. 807 is one of my favorites. This photo however is in 1922. Probably also in 1922, before the grouping, the GCR extended the roof.
Do you think they left the rest (chimney, tapered buffers) like on the photo?

In that case no. 5807 it will be, and the Alan Gibson tapered NE buffers were the best I could find.
No. 807 was renumbered in 1925, and altered to LNE gauge in 1928, but reverted to GCR gauge in '31, until '34, when they put it back it to LNE gauge.
That gives me a nice timespan, if I put the number on the cabside.

There is a photo in RCTS vol 5 of a J11 cab interior.

Photo found. This is most helpful indeed. The entire cab seems to be painted in a light, creamy (darkwhite) colour. I'm not sure if I can count all the rivets, but will surely try to add some more detail like gauges, regulator in the J10.

By the way, am I still on your list for a J12?

Leen.

Good morning all
I have just found this interesting thread.
I have recently bought a DJH J10 at a reasonable price.
I would like to convert it to the small tender version rather than the 4000gal version. Bill Bedford has brought my attention to the different cab cutouts for the tender variants. Also, from the RCTS vol 3B details of D6, the smaller tender is 9ins shorter. However, the RCTS vol 5 details do not show shorter overall lengths with the 3080gal tender.
The 3080gal tender also had smaller wheels, which will only require fitting a piece of 1mm plasticard on top of the Comet tender chassis that I intend fitting.
I am wondering where to chop the tender to reduce its size.
Does anyone have any ideas?

Earlswood nob

G'day all
I have been measuring photographs of J9's and other GCR locos pulling 3080 tenders. These seem to indicate that the 3080gal tender is approx the same length as the 4000gal tender. However, the 3080gal tender is approx 1ft (4mm in 00 scale) lower than the 4000gal tender.
I think that if 4mm is removed from the DJH J9 tender sides (and ends), it would give a pretty good model of the smaller tender.
I'm seriously thinking of doing it myself, when my back problems ease enough to let me get back to my workbench.

Earlswood nob

As far as I'm aware the tanks on 3080 gall versions as well as lower were narrower and shorter. There are a couple of photos in locos illustrated ( GC 0-6-0's) that show this. Also the last batch built under Robinsons tenure has 3080 gall tenders but differed from the earlier versions as being flush riveted , different axleboxes, two bar coal rails and the small closure panel by the vertical handrail post and handrail at the front of the tender was flush with the tank sides whereas on the 4000 gall types it was recessed.
I presume (!!) that you intend to build a pre BP batch loco ??. So I assume that you are aware of the larger cab cutout....and that the cab was lower and narrower than the BP version ?.
One feature that can help you to identify the two main tender types is the number of gussets on the tender axlebox hornguides, the 3080 types have two and the 4000 types have three.
Just to make it even more interesting, in LNE days tenders were swapped around and photos do exist of kitson locos paired with the larger 4000 gall tenders and visa versa.
Hope that some of this helps !!.
Cheers Tony.

Afternoon all
Thanks Tony for the info. Reading the RCTS green books shows that the 3080gal tender locos have a shorted overall length on some classes but not in other.
I shall have to get the magnifing glass out and look at my books.

Earlswood nob

The 3080 gallon tender seems to be a rare beast - I've found the fully dimensioned Roche drawing of the Robinson 4000 gallon tender in Historic Locomotive Drawings and two versions of the 3250 gallon tender in RM August 1998 (J11) and RM June 1989 (C4) by Ian Beattie. No luck on the 3050 gallon tender, but I did find a works photo of No. 845: http://emu.msim.org.uk/web/objects/comm ... ?irn=12917, but with a 4000 gallon tender I suspect. Unfortunately, the MOSI search stops just before "Kitson" (if there is anything at all).

I don't suppose that this helps, but at least I found a good source of works drawings and photos!

Peter