The LNER Encyclopedia

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:56 am**

A new production of the A3 locomotive #60103 "Flying Scotsman" from the German firm Märklin has been announced on the anniversary day of the engines entering service in 1923.

This model is being offered in the continental scale of 1:87 in digital/sound for both 2 rail (TRIX) and for 3 rail, which will attract buyers world-wide.
It comes with a corridor tender and liveried as preserved in the National Collection.
Märklin do not reveal if the model is made in Germany or contracted elsewhere but are renowned for the quality of their die-casting, mechanisms, and print finishes.

Märklin are known for releasing variants of their models, so it is possible that in the future we might see earlier versions of the A3 in 1:87. No announcement has been made regarding suitable revenue rolling stock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnAEGlwOxGE

https://www.maerklin.de/en/lp/2023/flying-scotsman

Kimball

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 7:59 am**

I was very tempted by the SNCB Type1 Pacific from 2021, not so much by the SNCF 241a from last year but this could push me over the edge. I wouldn't usually commit that kind of money to a model but perhaps one exception wouldn't hurt. Being Marklin a few things are assured, it will be heavy, built to last and pull whatever length train you want it to. Might have to track down some old Lima H0 scale Mk1s to go with it. No doubt it will look odd keeping company with DB BR03, 41, 44 and so on but hey, why would anybody worry about things like that.

Paul

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:17 am**

A very heavy looking cumbersome front end in the photo.

Bizarre Chimey far too high, Rivets on top of Boiler, Copper Piping way overscale, Bogie looks like there is zero movement available. Swinging Cartazzi Truck aka 1980's Hornby!!.

I wont mention the price !! I appreciatte this is a mock up.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:03 am**

All very true Mick. I won't pretend that I know anything more about their process but they can do better. I doesn't have the fine detail look about it that the Belgian pacific has. The swinging rear end will be a fixture I think, Marklin has to negotiate 15" curves to cater for the M track brigade (includes me when I'm in Marklin mode) which they take quite seriously. Time will tell I guess.

Paul

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:26 am**

mick b wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:17 am A very heavy looking cumbersome front end in the photo...

Yes, generally ill proportioned at the front end. (The weather sheet added to the cab roof looks very strange too.)
But what I want to see is a front head on view. Can Martrix get the overall widths to scale, and nowhere exceeding 31.5mm? If they can with current technique, then we can all go HO...

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:31 am**

kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:56 am....Märklin ....are renowned for the quality of their die-casting, mechanisms, and print finishes.....

They are also notorious for robust motion - expect overscale rod links and pivots - and massive flanges on all wheels. Not greatly changed from what tgey were making in the 1980s.

This is probably going to be a one-off British outline model for Märklin, and I'd be surprised if it leads to more British HO RTR. Some may remember the Rivarossi original Royal Scot, and the Fleischmann Warships, none of which led to anything of note.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:04 am**

Horsetan wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:31 am
kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:56 am....Märklin ....are renowned for the quality of their die-casting, mechanisms, and print finishes.....
They are also notorious for robust motion - expect overscale rod links and pivots - and massive flanges on all wheels. Not greatly changed from what tgey were making in the 1980s.

This is probably going to be a one-off British outline model for Märklin, and I'd be surprised if it leads to more British HO RTR. Some may remember the Rivarossi original Royal Scot, and the Fleischmann Warships, none of which led to anything of note.

Over scale bits are not a stupid idea when handling heavy loads and steep gradients are expectations of users. Massive flanges, well they don't fall off, even on rubbish track, not greatly changed since the 50s I would say. I can check that out actually, I have an old RSM800 electric loco in bits at the moment, easy to compare with a more modern model.

I would suggest if you don't order one this year, then you'll be looking for a second hand one next year. Similar to the Belgian and French locos I mentioned earlier, only seem to have one production run and that's it.

Paul

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:35 pm**

just my view. The over riding issue with British HO scale is that of the British loading gauge. It would appear that the maximum width over the footplate is some 9ft or 36mm in OO gauge, whereas in HO this come out to 31.5mm. The issue as I see it is that whilst the width over the face of the wheels will be similar the space available in HO for outside vale gear becomes very tight. By default scale modelling of British prototypes in HO must require standards similar to those in Scalefour. Is this possible in a mass produced model? This same observation can equally apply to the new Hornby TT range. Is anyone in the position to confirm that the maximum width of the models is in fact 18mm.

Posted: **Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:33 pm**

Pebbles wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:35 pm ...scale modelling of British prototypes in HO must require standards similar to those in Scalefour. Is this possible in a mass produced model? ...

Of course it is. Just take a look at miniature mechanisms in clockwork watches. But then comes the rub, the models will then require true scale radii to operate on, which restricts pacific models to circa metre and a half as a minimum radius. Bottom line as ever is what all this costs, the loco will be very expensive, as also the space in which to build a layout that includes a circuit. I expect the market might be one or two hundred folks, so the potential RTR model price will be very large indeed...

Lucky me, I have a 3.4m wide layout room so could do it. But I'll settle happily for the economy offered by OO; the scale/gauge compromise enables sufficient sales to keep the price down.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:41 am**

Pebbles wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 12:35 pm just my view. The over riding issue with British HO scale is that of the British loading gauge. It would appear that the maximum width over the footplate is some 9ft or 36mm in OO gauge, whereas in HO this come out to 31.5mm. The issue as I see it is that whilst the width over the face of the wheels will be similar the space available in HO for outside vale gear becomes very tight. By default scale modelling of British prototypes in HO must require standards similar to those in Scalefour. Is this possible in a mass produced model? This same observation can equally apply to the new Hornby TT range. Is anyone in the position to confirm that the maximum width of the models is in fact 18mm.

Hello Pebbles,
It is interesting that you bring that up.
I think you have done a good job in explaining the conundrums facing a model-maker.
I am also a member/contributor on a Märklin forum.
In relation to 60103 there has been a discussion on loading gauge differences between UK and the Continent.

I researched this as follows:
Molesworth's Handbook of Engineering 1951 Edition, which was first published in 1862 shows loading gauge heights for:
British standard - 15 feet 0 inches.
Continental (including Germany, France etc) - 15 feet 9 inches
The British is lower by 9 inches = 228.6mm.
The USA and Russia and others are even larger again.

Loading gauge widths over bodies are:
British standard - 9 feet 8 inches
Continental - 8 feet 7 inches
The British is wider by 13 inches = 330mm

But ..... at the extremities of the loading gauge widths the height changes to the following:
British standard - 10 feet 6 inches
Continental - 12 feet
The British is lower by 1 foot 6 inches = 457mm

Kimball

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:22 am**

mick b wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:17 am A very heavy looking cumbersome front end in the photo.

Bizarre Chimey far too high, .....

Hello Mick,
When I first viewed the model images the chimney jumped at me too.
However on reflection I think we are so used to seeing engines from the ground (in photos from a similar vantage point) we don't realise exactly how BIG chimneys are.
And further Märklin may have made a mistake, but it is extremely unlikely. They use a modern 3D digital design software (Catia) which can draw measurements and perspectives from multiple sources, and which ends up controlling many of the casting and extrusion processes. Their research and historical resources always seem impeccable.

I notice from the available sources, that 60103 has worn the double chimney since about 2005, and in contrast to the single it is quite prominent.

As for the riveting shown atop the boiler, I would have thought that the casing would have hidden that. But I just don't know.
Märklin actually make a bit of a promo about the casing bands which are separately applied. Talk about watchmakers work ........!

Kimball

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:13 am**

nzpaul wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:04 am ....I would suggest if you don't order one this year, then you'll be looking for a second hand one next year. ....

Er.....nah.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 6:35 pm**

Marklin are well known for fitting as much detail as they can in order to make their products look as close to the full size version as possible, the big sting there is the price from what I can see.

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:15 pm**

kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:22 am
mick b wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:17 am A very heavy looking cumbersome front end in the photo.

Bizarre Chimey far too high, .....
Hello Mick,
When I first viewed the model images the chimney jumped at me too.
However on reflection I think we are so used to seeing engines from the ground (in photos from a similar vantage point) we don't realise exactly how BIG chimneys are.
And further Märklin may have made a mistake, but it is extremely unlikely. They use a modern 3D digital design software (Catia) which can draw measurements and perspectives from multiple sources, and which ends up controlling many of the casting and extrusion processes. Their research and historical resources always seem impeccable.

I notice from the available sources, that 60103 has worn the double chimney since about 2005, and in contrast to the single it is quite prominent.

As for the riveting shown atop the boiler, I would have thought that the casing would have hidden that. But I just don't know.
Märklin actually make a bit of a promo about the casing bands which are separately applied. Talk about watchmakers work ........!

Kimball

Kimbal

A3's as Scotsman would have been by then, started having Double Chimneys fitted from 1958 and some with A4 Boilers about the same time/period.

see here

https://www.lner.info/locos/A/a1a3a10.php

Until the Loco is produced ,no one know what the final production will actually look like. At £600 each I wont be worrying much either way !!!

cheers

Mick

Posted: **Mon Feb 27, 2023 8:33 pm**

kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 3:41 am ...I researched this as follows:
Molesworth's Handbook of Engineering 1951 Edition, which was first published in 1862 shows loading gauge heights for:
British standard - 15 feet 0 inches.
Continental (including Germany, France etc) - 15 feet 9 inches
The British is lower by 9 inches = 228.6mm.
The USA and Russia and others are even larger again.

Loading gauge widths over bodies are:
British standard - 9 feet 8 inches
Continental - 8 feet 7 inches
The British is wider by 13 inches = 330mm...

The quoted British dimensions are significantly in error. There were variations between the various private companies, but by the grouping in 1923 maximum height was generally between 13' and 13'6", maximum width 9'.

kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 5:22 am ...And further Märklin may have made a mistake, but it is extremely unlikely. They use a modern 3D digital design software (Catia) which can draw measurements and perspectives from multiple sources, and which ends up controlling many of the casting and extrusion processes. Their research and historical resources always seem impeccable.

I notice from the available sources, that 60103 has worn the double chimney since about 2005, and in contrast to the single it is quite prominent...

All this is the usual claim of HO's true believers, but I am afraid HO has its errors. Specific to this model, that chimney is way overheight, and the smokebox diameter visibly too small. It will be easy to check the smokebox diameter once the model is available: should be scale for 6', thus 21 mm.

And all the A3's got kylchap ejector double chimneys before withdrawal from traffic in the early 1960s.

The LNER Encyclopedia

1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin

Re: 1:87 model of Class A3 from Märklin