A4 Liveries

[A4enthusiast]

I have a Hornby A4 No. 4469 Gadwall (British-made, tender driven) that badly needs a new paint job, However, exactly how these A4 models are painted varies considerably depending on the particular model. On this model black paint occupies the full width of the running boards and finishes abruptly where the corrugated step at the front of the running board finishes. This loco has only one white lining stripe around the smokebox, which finishes near the front of the corrugated step. Black paint on the cab roof finishes just in front of the safety valves.

On a later model such as R3280 No. 4496 Golden Shuttle the black paint tapers inwards towards the smokebox from just in front of the corrugated step. The smokebox has red and white lining that extends back as far as the first boiler band. Black paint on the cab roof finishes in a point just behind the boiler band.

A Bachmann A4 No. 4491 Commonwealth of Australia with postwar silver lettering has a similar paint job to Golden Shuttle but doesn't even have the corrugated step. The black paint on the running board is the full width of the running board at the back of the cab but then follows an almost straight line inwards towards the front of the loco so that there is both blue and black paint on the running boards from just in front of the cab to just in front of the first boiler band.

The Bachmann loco also has a silver stripe along the bottom of the valance.

Can anyone tell me:

Is there a "correct" paint job for Garter Blue A4s or did it change with time or other factors such as where it was painted (apart from the obvious like postwar lettering)?
Any help would be much appreciated. I've also posted this query on the Hornby forum. Lots of views but no reply!

[Atlantic 3279]

I believe that one (or more) of our number has a copy of the official painting diagram for a garter blue A4, obtained from the NRM archives. Perhaps you'll be lucky enough to attract his attention and assistance...
Whether the official scheme was universally applied and maintained without changes is another question.

[mick b]

What actual painted version do you wish to apply to the model?.

As said various versions existed including Grey, Apple Green and plain Black also were used.

[A4enthusiast]

Thank you for your replies.

Apologies, I mustn't have made it clear in my original post that the colour scheme I'm interested in is Garter Blue. The period I'm interested in is immediately post-war as I've got several A4s with silver lettering and some with single or two-digit numbers, so I'm not interested in the wartime black and I already have Silver Link, Silver Fox, Silver King and Quicksilver. Gadwall will almost certainly be renamed and renumbered (I'm not sure what as, something with a single chimney) since it was of course renamed Sir Ralph Wedgwood in 1939 but destroyed in 1942 and Herring Gull was renamed Sir Ralph Wedgwood (which I already have) in 1944.

Is there any information on when each A4 received its final, short LNER number before BR re-numbering?

[mick b]

Info in RCTS part 2a .

All the A4's were fitted with cut out Metal Silver Letters and Numbers as per pre war Coronation A4's without the Silver metal banding on Loco and Tender.

[jwealleans]

Neil Dimmer has a good shot of Seagull in almost the condition you want: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com ... /i-xXvZMvQ

That shows where the black and lining stripes should go. There's also a colour shot of Empire of India at Waverley in exactly the condition you describe, but it's further away and wont help you so much with livery details: https://railway-photography.smugmug.com ... /i-g9K6X7g

[A4enthusiast]

Thanks for the links to those two photos, which also raise the confusing subject of valances, which the locos in the two photos don't have. A respondent on the Hornby forum suggested that having A4s with valances and postwar lettering would be wrong as all valances were removed during WW2. This was my reply:

" I'm not sure if all valances were removed during the war. If they were then A4s that I have with postwar silver lettering are incorrect, including my newest one Hornby R3280 No. 4496 Golden Shuttle and Bachmann 4491 Commonwealth of Australia, to name two that have valances and postwar lettering.

Three preserved A4s have valances, Bittern, Dominion of Canada and Mallard, but I don't know if the valances were removed and if so when they were replaced or if they were re-made.

Finally, Hornby currently offer two A4s with postwar silver lettering and valances, R3992 No. 4491 Commonwealth of Australia and R3993 No. 4490 Empire of India. So have Hornby got it wrong?"

I know that Hornby have simplified gold lettering on their "Railroad" range, such as their current Mallard, but these locos are top-of-the-range ones and definitely with 1946 silver lettering.

Any information as to whether A4s had valances or not post-war would be welcome as at the moment I am totally confused.

[kimballthurlow]

I have a Hornby A4 No. 4469 Gadwall (British-made, tender driven) that badly needs a new paint job, However, exactly how these A4 models are painted varies considerably depending on the particular model. .....

A Bachmann A4 No. 4491 Commonwealth of Australia .... loco also has a silver stripe along the bottom of the valance.
......Is there a "correct" paint job for Garter Blue A4s or did it change with time or other factors such as where it was painted (apart from the obvious like postwar lettering)?
Any help would be much appreciated. I've also posted this query on the Hornby forum. Lots of views but no reply!

Hello,
Regarding the sliver stripe at the bottom of the valance, this was applied to only 8 locomotives (those 5 named after Commonwealth countries plus Sir Nigel Gresley plus the two built for the The West Riding streamliner).
"..... had a polished stainless steel strip along the bottom edges of the side skirting and tender. When the locomotives were re-painted blue this strip was removed from the skirting but not from the tender." quoting Locomotives in Detail #3, Gresley A4 Class, David Clarke, Ian Allan Publishing 2005.
This statement while undoubtedly correct is problematic for RTR models and for the modeller in that:
1. The locomotive skirting was removed well before the locomotives were repainted blue, in fact the last in September 1942.
2. I presume the term 'repainted blue' refers to the BR period between May 1949 and December 1950 which is well beyond the time of your interest.

Kimball

[jwealleans]

...this was applied to only 6 locomotives (those 5 named after Commonwealth countries plus Sir Nigel Gresley).

Not quite. The two West Riding A4s also had it.

[kimballthurlow]

...this was applied to only 6 locomotives (those 5 named after Commonwealth countries plus Sir Nigel Gresley).

Not quite. The two West Riding A4s also had it.

Thank you Jonathan, you are correct - post edited.
4495 Golden Fleece and 4496 Golden Shuttle.
I believe these two may have lost the tender strip as well.

Kimball

[mick b]

Thanks for the links to those two photos, which also raise the confusing subject of valances, which the locos in the two photos don't have. A respondent on the Hornby forum suggested that having A4s with valances and postwar lettering would be wrong as all valances were removed during WW2. This was my reply:

" I'm not sure if all valances were removed during the war. If they were then A4s that I have with postwar silver lettering are incorrect, including my newest one Hornby R3280 No. 4496 Golden Shuttle and Bachmann 4491 Commonwealth of Australia, to name two that have valances and postwar lettering.

Three preserved A4s have valances, Bittern, Dominion of Canada and Mallard, but I don't know if the valances were removed and if so when they were replaced or if they were re-made.

Finally, Hornby currently offer two A4s with postwar silver lettering and valances, R3992 No. 4491 Commonwealth of Australia and R3993 No. 4490 Empire of India. So have Hornby got it wrong?"

I know that Hornby have simplified gold lettering on their "Railroad" range, such as their current Mallard, but these locos are top-of-the-range ones and definitely with 1946 silver lettering.

Any information as to whether A4s had valances or not post-war would be welcome as at the moment I am totally confused.

Valances were removed from the A4' during the war and never ever used again. Metal lettering was used on all the 5 Coronation , Gresley and the 2 West Riding locos pre war. Grealsy had her lettering/numbers painted Yellow over the Chrome when Black no idea re the others. All the A4's and the W1 had Chrome metal letters and numbers post war .

Merlin post war all were similar other than the Badge on the cab. My conversion of a Hornby R2339 Mallard pre war version with Single Chimney and Corridor Tender added.

[Mercator II]

https://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/mob-a4names.shtml

I've posted this link a few times on here, but worth doing again

Read all the parts, plus the other one about tenders

https://sirnigelgresley.org.uk/mob-tenders.shtml