GCR 40ft 12T Bogie Brake Van: what was the GC livery?

[Chas Levin]

Hello all, I have the Brassmasters Great Central Railway 40ft 12T Bogie Brake Van (a reissue of an older R&E kit) which I'm thinking of building in GC livery, but I'm confused as to what that would have been.
It has the appearance of a full brake carriage, so I had assumed it would have been finished in varnished wood of some sort with carriage sized lettering, but the photo of a completed model on the Brassmasters site shows it - in LNER days - in the livery of a freight van, red oxide with a large 'N' and 'E' on the doors.
Does that mean that in GC days it would have been in their freight grey with a large 'G' and 'C'? Apparently six of them were built at Gorton in 1906.
I would like to be able to include it in a parcels train with other full brakes - milk, luggage etc - so I would prefer to be able to finish it in varnished wood as that's what the rest of the train is: does anyone have any photos or other information suggesting that these vehicles were ever finished that way? I've googled and looked through my book collection but I cannot find any photos one,

Thanks in advance, Chas

[mick b]

No idea , however I would have thought NPCCS livery e.g Brown paint with a data panel bottom right corner.

I have never seen a Brake Van (it does'nt look like a Brakevan with panelling etc either) that large in Red Oxide.

[jwealleans]

This is the newspaper van? When I acquired mine (still unbuilt) I wrote to Robin Peover asking about liveries and any photographs. There's only one known picture and that isn't very good. I think the way Brassmasters have finished theirs is about as good a guess as we can now make for LNER.

For GC I think it's NPCCS, so either varnished wood or the very dark brown colour Steve Banks uses on some of his GC vehicles - about Humbrol 133, maybe darker and less red. Can you get the transfers for it?

[mick b]

JW why would it have been changed to a Brake Van by the LNER, if GCR classisfied it as NPSCCS ?

The Brassmaster (very poor) instructions, say Grey for the GCR .

[jwealleans]

It's a brake van in the same way a BG is a brake van, Mick - it has a guards compartment and a brake valve. I found a drawing last night which shows the two outer compartments marked 'Fruit and Vegetable', so that's a hint as to what the LNER did with it.

[Hatfield Shed]

... I would prefer to be able to finish it in varnished wood as that's what the rest of the train is: does anyone have any photos or other information suggesting that these vehicles were ever finished that way?...

This was why the late Peter Denny modelled GCR, no one knew much about it, so he wouldn't be overly bothered by dogmatists proclaiming errors. Pretty safe to say none now living are in a position to tell you how it appeared throughout its GCR service: if it looks like it could have carried a varnished wood finish, and you like that scheme, just go do!

[billbedford]

Does this help?

I think this shows a, very dirty, passenger livery.

The GC drawing for these vans is headed 'Fish and Excursion Brake'

Note this van has a steel ducket, and what looks like emergency brake cord rings along the edge of the roof, which would seem to be an anachronism.

[jwealleans]

That makes two photographs, then. Thanks, Bill.

[Chas Levin]

Thank you everyone for the very informative replies!

I'm glad I wasn't the only one to think the livery in the Brassmasters LNER picture looked a little unusual for something that apparently so closely resembled a carriage - no disrespect intended to Brassmasters of course, as there is clearly something of a debate on this.

Interested to hear Jonathan that the LNER probably used it for Fruit & Veg, as I'd been working on the assumption that the Brassmasters mention of newspapers was it's original main purpose, which pleased me as it's a little different from my other NPCS. Thanks for the Humbrol 133 suggestion - I'll get some and see what it's like. I know the section on Steve Bank's site, where he shows some lovely modelling of 50' suburban coaches and notes that they were panelled in mahogany, which he has duly portrayed in a beautifully dark, subtle graining: something to aim for!

I didn't quite know what to make of the kit instructions, which also mention a photo being seen of one in cream and brown passenger livery but with a steel look-out... And thank you Bill for the very interesting photo . I wonder if that's the one they mean? I have to say I'm a little doubtful about it showing a two-colour livery (though some of the succeeding cars clearly are) but I realise it's also been looked at by many pairs of eyes with years more experience that I have in interpreting B&W photos. Zooming in degrades the resolution which doesn't help, but to me, it looks like the whole side, upper and lower panels, is in one colour - quite what that colour is I'm not sure! I'd incline towards it being brown or wood, covered in dirt, but it could of course also be very dirty grey...

Ok, so I think the consensus is that we can get away with an unlined, cream-less NPCS varnished mahogany without being too far from probable reality. That will be an interesting thing to try, as all the varnished wood carriages I've done to date have been teak - some quite aged it's true, but none as dark as this one will need to be.

As to transfers... I shall see what I can find, or what I can edit together from stock, after some research into GC passenger stock fonts and colours... Clearly the GC 'Fish & Excursion' would be more fitting than the LNER's later 'Fruit & Vegetable', but just to add to the options, the kit instructions quote 'Fish & Fruit'! Something to do with newspapers would have been my ideal. It will probably come down to what I can find or make.

It's not the next build, probably 2 or 3 along, partly because it requires 3' 7" Mansells and there is a supply hiccup currently with the very nice 51L ones I have been using from Wizard, so there's time to have a look round for suitable transfers too.

[mick b]

It's a brake van in the same way a BG is a brake van, Mick - it has a guards compartment and a brake valve. I found a drawing last night which shows the two outer compartments marked 'Fruit and Vegetable', so that's a hint as to what the LNER did with it.

Hence Fruit and Veg = Red Oxide Livery presumably ??

BG's were in Teak lined livery, and Teak paint as well. I have also seen a ex NER Newpaper Van modelled in Teak paint.

[mick b]

The photo could be two colours as the bottom is clearly darker below the waistband line, this also follows the colour seperation on the Coaches. Covered with a lot of filth.

There more vents/gas lamps on the Roof as well, compared to the kit.

[JASd17]

The photo could be two colours as the bottom is clearly darker below the waistband line, this also follows the colour seperation on the Coaches. Covered with a lot of filth.

I cannot draw the same conclusions above, from looking at the same photo!

I see no evidence of an obvious darker colour on the lower panelling.

John

[billbedford]

The photo could be two colours as the bottom is clearly darker below the waistband line, this also follows the colour seperation on the Coaches. Covered with a lot of filth.

I cannot draw the same conclusions above, from looking at the same photo!

I see no evidence of an obvious darker colour on the lower panelling.

John

That's the problem, the colour difference is subtle rather than obvious. The point being that normal passenger coaches would be cleaned once a day, or at worst, once a week, but if this brake's main use was on fish trains then it would likely to be cleaned between shoppings.

If you've ever played "what colour is that BR CCT" then you will understand.

And then there is this photo. While the six-wheeler is obviously very dirty it is still recognisably in the duotone livery, but what about the slip-brake in the centre?

[Chas Levin]

That's another very interesting photo Bill, thank you for posting it.
With once again the disclaimer that I have spent considerably less time examining such photos as you and many others on here have, I must say that if I saw it without hearing any suggestions first as to livery, I think I would have supposed that the six-wheeler was in fact all one colour and that the apparent difference in the upper panels is sunlight reflection, there being a difference in the incident angle of light on the full height of the sides due to the tumblehome. I think it looks very different to the leading coach, which could not possibly be anything other than duotone. The centre slip-brake I would likewise have thought to be a single colour - very possibly the varnished mahogany panelling mentioned above.
I fully take your point about more frequent cleaning of passenger vehicles, but even after repeated examination whilst writing this, zooming in, using a magnifying glass etc, I still think that at best, the jury's out for me on this one: I think it could be duotone but if I had to choose, I'd say reflected sunlight. If only it were a frame from a piece of film: we could watch that last carriage sway from side to side and see whether the shading changed, freeze-frame it a few yards further on...

Taking another look at the photo you posted yesterday I am still of the opinion that the brake there is all one colour too. There is a brighter - or lighter - horizontal band along the whole length middle third of the side, which I take to be the result of more dirt being deposited on the upper and lower thirds (from soot and ground dirt respectively), but if you compare the upper third with the lower third, trying to exclude that middle band from your consideration, I'd say they look the same colour. There is also a small lighter patch in the lower righthand corner of the lowest panel, right by the rear of the loco, and I can't see how that would appear lighter than some of the upper areas, if the upper areas were a type of cream and the lower a dark brown...

[Richard i]

I have one to build too and when I questioned this was shown a photo where it has big g and c on the side and is in grey. Old grainy image and it is not the main subject of the photo.
As to the photo here. I would say it is two colours. I would have said French grey rather than cream to account for the difference to the other stock, but it was built too late so gut instinct says dirt.
Fish vans were passenger brown in cream and brown days but grey in teak days and so here I fear is the answer, if you want it to look like a passenger carriage it is brown and cream. If you are running in the teak era then it is grey.
Happy to be corrected but that was my take on it after exploring what livery it might have. If I find the photo in grey I will post it up, but there is no guarantee I will be able to track it down.
Richard