The LNER Encyclopedia

I posted a thread regarding how the LNER might have developed had Nationalisation not occurred. I've taken on board the discussions that occurred as well as information I've obtained afterwards and incorporated it into a plan for a layout which, as far as I'm aware, will touch upon a concept that's never left the theoretical stage and the odd digitally altered post nationalization locomotive whilst being faithful to the spirit of the LNER.

the layout will be a OO scale 10x15 foot (est.) DCC mainline layout set on a fictional station on the ECML between Doncaster and Selby in the 50s and 60s that also serves as an interchange with a fictional former constituent that brings a variety of materials such as coal, stone and lumber to the interchange.

due to size constraints the mainline will be two tracks as opposed to four and the trains will be a maximum of 6 coaches and 15 wagons long.

I've set myself a few "historical" parameters so it's not a cluster**** of conflicting logics. A number of these are based on the development of other countries' railways like those of Australia, Ireland, mainland Europe and America.

in this reality the LNER wasn't quite so cash strapped.

the railways weren't so damaged during WW2.

At the time depicted on this layout, the ECML has been electrified between Doncaster and York to allow Woodhead coal trains to go nonstop to Doncaster or York.

headcode lamps are being phased out in favour of electric lights like those fitted to later LNER locomotives. allowing locomotives on the layout to display any headcode possible using LEDs.

Private Owner Wagon Companies have undergone a soft-nationalisation of sorts, with companies in a particular county, city or area being merged together and falling under the ownership of the relevant councils. Examples that will appear on the layout include Yorkshire Union Collieries, Humberside Iron and steel, Greater Lincolnshire Coal & Coke, East Riding (Coal), Yorkshire Dales United Dairy products, and Nottinghamshire Coal & Coke. Liveries are to be decided following further discussion.

diesel locomotives will be a mixture of ECML specific English types like the Deltic and Baby Deltic, and foreign power like the EMD-NoHAB and Irish outline GM-EMD types built under licence (the logic here being that GM-EMD would base their LNER locomotives off the locomotives already built for Ireland). these will all be modified in design to have four headcode lights like the Woodhead's EM series electric locomotives plus a few detail alterations.

All-new electric locomotives will be similar to some European rigid framed electric locomotives, with a 2-Bo-Bo-2 passenger locomotive based on Raven's EE1 2-Co-2 locomotive, and a 2-E-2 heavy freight locomotive similar in appearance to the ill-fated Fell-diesel planned, both using English electric body shells (DP1 for the 2-Co-2 and 37/40 for the 2-Do-2).

Wagons will undergo a transition from short wheelbase two-axle wagons to long wheelbase bogie wagons, maybe 30 or 40ft long, that still display the hallmarks of older British freight wagons similar to this 1939-built BRCW livestock van destined for Iraq. at the time depicted on the layout both types of wagon can be seen in abundance.


these wagons will be scratch built using ready made detail components.

As this layout is still in the planning stages some details may tend to develop, evolve or change over time. Additionally this will be my first time doing a proper layout and whilst I understand the theory behind a great deal of different techniques relating to railway modelling I've never really had the opportunity to put my skills to the test besides the odd kit which I have thoroughly enjoyed. so I ask those following the thread to keep an open mind, much like Edward Thompson this will be my first time testing out my own ideas, though hopefully unlike Thompson I won't become infamous for it

Here's a basic outline of pre-existing diesel locomotives that would be present on the LNER at the time depicted on the planned layout, all locomotives follow on from Thompson's classification system and have plain fronts with four headcode lights. as information becomes available more classes will be added.

In 1950 the LNER management board decided that diesel and electric locomotives would require a separate numbering system, eventually they settled on the following for diesel locomotives:
D1-D999: under 800hp
D1000-D1999: 800hp-1000hp
D2000-D2999: 1001hp-1499hp
D3000-D3999: 1500hp-1999hp
D4000-D4999: 2000hp-2999hp
D5000-D6999: over 3000hp

Loco liveries are as follows :
shunting locomotives: black with red buffer beams, running board and side rods to aid visibility,
locomotives under 1500hp and freight locomotives: red-lined black (see EM1 and EM2).
locomotives over 1500hp: see DEE2

Frome 1960: loco green, with Buldogs being painted Garter Blue with red lining

Shunters (DES):

DES3 "Janus" (D8-D310)

upon their construction by YEC, the LNER purchased one on a trial basis to shunt the yard at Froddingham, upon evaluation it was determined to be satisfactory to the LNER's needs and, following negotiations over 300 were built under licence using LNER standard components, the locos replaced the smaller 0-6-0 tender locos being used for shunting and trip working.

DES4 (D311-320)

Based on a standard Yorkshire Engine company design (pictured), these diminutive 0-4-0s were built to supplement the LNER-built Janus in smaller yards.

DES5 "Teddy Bear" (D321-D351)

The D95XX class "Teddy Bears" were a GWR design intended for trip workings in the south west, unfortunately by the late 1960s their intended work began to dry up and so they began to be sold on to industry or scrapped. Meanwhile with steam in decline the LNER found itself in need of some heavy-duty trip shunters to work pick up goods, trains from the coal fields and permanent way trains. So it arranged to purchase no less than 30 from the GWR and they were promptly sent, in convoy, to the LNER network. Having experience with Rolls Royce's engines the LNER took the decision to rebuild them with RR DV8TCEs (Turbocharged V8) and allocated them to various branchlines, LNER served collieries and as station pilots.

This is intended to someday be an experiment in recording my own sound files, and is inspired by 14,901, a locomotive owned by a person who I've been graciously hosted by on several occasions, and quite frankly I prefer the purr of a Rolls Royce to the burble of the standard engines:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_XszBG_E0E

Passenger Locomotives (DEE/DEP):

DEP1 "Baby Deltic" (D2000-D20249)

Designed for suburban and semi-fast trains, the DEP1 utalised an English Electric Napier-Deltic T9-29, which was a design of engine originally developed for marine and aviation use. Initially the locomotives suffered from weight issues, though this was later cured. The engine also had a number of issues such as an "above-average" rate of engine replacement, though again this as rectified with time and they became acceptably reliable. In the 1970s they underwent a major rebuild to lighten their design, and they were re-engined with EMD units, becoming class DEP1/2.

DEE1 "Bulldog" (D3000-D3024)
In 1947 the board of the LNER approved plans to construct 25 A1A-A1A diesel-electric locomotives of 1,600 horse power each to work in pairs on the principal Anglo-Scottish expresses, with one spare. Eventually GM-EMD was tasked with designing the locomotive to build under license, as EMD had much more experience producing reliable high powered engines capable of fitting into a locomotive than the equivalent british manufacturer did. The end result was in essence an EMD E-unit Co-Co with a smaller engine and reproportioned for the LNER loading gauge

DEE2 "Deltic" (D5000-D5069)

The DEE2 was developed as a solution to eliminate the requirement for using two DEE1s, following the trial of an experimental locomotive classified DP1 (Diesel Prototype 1) the Board of the LNER authorized the construction of 70 similar locomotives. Although they did indeed reduce the need for two DEE1 units their engines were highly sprung and costly to maintain, meaning their predecessors still saw regular use alongside them. Following their displacement from top link duties in the mid-80s they were refurbished with EMD power units, reclassified DEP2/2 and allocated to the Great Central.


Mixed traffic Locomotives (DEM):
DEM1 (D1000-D1149)

based on the EMD GL8, these fill the role of the BR class 20, being a single cab Bo-Bo of roughly 1000hp, but they display some deference from both locomotives. unlike the class 20 they're intended to work cab forward and unlike the GL8 they have reduced height cabs to fit in the LNER's loading Gauge, and the cab front is based on that of the LNER Tyneside electric units.

the body shell and bogie sides for a CIE 121 are available on shapeways, and should fit on a Bachmann class 20 chassis with a little modification: https://www.shapeways.com/product/S3QTQ ... areProduct

DEM2 "Baby Bulldog" (D3025-D3324)


Following the success of the DEE1, the LNER decided to purchase a further 300 diesel electric locomotives based on the DEE1, but as standalone double cabbed versions to handle mixed traffic duties as replacement for classes such as the B1, they also differed mechanically from the DEE1s in being Co-Cos, rather than A1A-A1As.

DEM3 "Whistler" (D4000-D4399)

Though the most prestigious top link work on the ECML was covered by Bulldogs and Deltics, it still needed to provide a mixed traffic locomotive to handle the bulk of freight and work whilst electrification took place. Rather than order yet more DEM2s it was decided a larger locomotive was needed to fill in the role of steam classes such as the V2 and Thompson & Peppercorn's A2s, thus the board of the LNER, with the success of the Deltics, tasked English Electric to design and build a locomotive of 2000hp or more whilst maintaining a high route availability. in response English Electric built ten 2000hp 1-Co-Co-1s and delivered them to the Great Eastern for testing, following which the LNER ordered a further 390 with an increase in power to 2500hp to assist in maintaining heavy loads at speed and the original ten were subsequently re-engined to reflect this.

Freight locomotives (DEF):

DEF1 "Chopper" (D1150-D1377)

in addition to the DEM1 the LNER needed a diesel locomotive designed purely for frieght work to handle the work of 0-6-0 and 2-6-0 locomotives, for this they tasked English Electric with producing its own version of the DEM1. what resulted was the above single cab Bo-Bo. The distinctive beat of their engine earned them the nickname "chopper".

A number of these locomotives were actually mixed traffic locomotives, allocated to branchlines, most notably on the West Highland line, and classified as DEF1/2, they had tablet catchers and were fitted with air and vacuum brakes.

engine number D1175 will be the first example I do, as the BR equivalent, 20 026, was a resident to Frodingham shed, or it was there often enough to get photographed.


DEF2 "Tractor" (D3325-D3624)

In addition to the DEF1 the LNER ordered 300 EE Co-Co diesel-electrics to bulk up the mixed traffic roster

the first example I do of this class will be another supposed Frodingham engine, this time D3355, IRL 37 031. this initial model will simply be a repaint of a center headcode 37 with the running number in the headcode boxes. however for subsequent models I will be butchering the bodyshell from an original condition class 40 with lamp-codes to make resin casts on the nose-fronts (cannibalised with the bufferbeam of a 37 with the fairing around the bottom) to make an English Electric type 3 that is unique compared to the class 37




None of the images are my own

Unlike the majority of their diesel electric locomotives which had articulated chassis, following talks with multiple European countries which already had experience with electric traction, the LNER decided to adopt a rigid-framed construction for electric locomotives, baring the EM1 and EM2 classes.


The logic being that whilst diesel locomotives and multiple units would replace steam locomotives on non electrified routs such as branch lines with less well-laid trackwork, on the major trunk routs such the ECML and the GCML a rigid-framed locomotive would be much more stable at high speeds.

in 1960 with electrification of the Doncaster to York section of the ECML underway the LNER set about designing two new electric locomotives. a 2-Do-2 passenger locomotive designated EE2 and a 2-E-2 locomotive designated EF1, the original EF1s having been converted to class EB1 by this stage. these locomotives were constructed by English Electric and subsequently allocated to the Woodhead line for testing, during this time they were found to be more than capable of handling the steeply graded route.

The EE2 was in every sense a successor to Raven's EE1 2-Co-2 locomotive however it utalised 5ft driving wheels and the body was derived from the DEP2, with some minor alterations. It had a top speed of 100 mph

The EF1 was a very different machine, it had a body based on the DEP1, it utilised five geared traction motors driving ten 4ft driving wheels interconnected by outside-frame side rods to eliminate the potential for individual axels to slip, all of this gave it an appearance somewhat similar to the LMS's Fell diesel locomotive. it had a top speed of 45mph allowing it to take semi-fast fitted goods.

in addition to these locomotives two electric locomotives intended for less intensive duties were designed.

A 1-C-1 designed to work unfitted freight and local passenger trains similar to the OBB 1073 class, designated EM3, differences included rounded bonnets and a single pantograph

following Thompson's departure a number a changes were made to rolling stock liveries, which were effective from 1/1/1950:

Steam locomotives (Thompson's decision to paint all locomotives green was reversed and revised):

Streamlined Locomotives: Garter Blue
Passenger Locomotives: lined Apple Green
Mixed Traffic locomotives: Unlined Apple Green
Fast Frieght locomotives (EG K3 or 4-8-4): Lined Black
Frieght locomotives: plain black
Suburban or passenger tank engines: Unlined Green
Tank engines: Black

Modern Traction: In addition to the listed livires, they also had the Fish-eye logo painted on the cabside, with the number roughly central on the body (with some exceptions).

Diesel Locos: See previous posts

Electric locos:
EF, EB and ES series: Plain Black
EM series: Lined Black
EE series: Lined Apple Green

Coaching Stock (Varnished teak was dropped in favour of a simpler brown colour):
Passenger: Light-mid brown (To be finalised) with yellow lining
Non-Passenger: Light-mid brown unlined

Freight stock:
Fitted: Bauxite/brown
unfitted: grey
containers: Blue
Refrigerated Vans: White.

Departmental stock: blue

Post War steam locomotive classes

had nationalisation not occurred a number of things might have happened:

1. Peppercorn would have ordered the construction of additional pacifics, possibly taking them to numbers 163-199 (A1) and 540-599 (A2). Also additional O1s would be built from new as older less standard classes such as O2, O3, O4 & O5 came up to the end of their economic lifespan, whilst also filling in any gaps in the number range. A similar story would happen with the B1 class and older 4-6-0s

In addition the LNER also purchases 75 ex USATC S160 "Rattlesnake" 2-8-0s and reclassifies then O8, numbered 3495-3569. the "O7" WD 2-8-0s are partially rebuilt with LNER cabs and some standard components such as the cylinders and valve gear to ease with maintenance and replacement of parts.

2. following Peppercorn's death, J.F.Harrison would have taken over as CME, seeing out Peppercorns order of additional Pacifics, whilst also implementing his own designs, some perusing of RMweb in an imaginary locomotives thread has unearthed the following information regarding the work of Harrison:

'It is worth considering what would have happened in the LNER locomotive world if there had been no Nationalisation. JF Harrison would, of course, have succeeded Peppercorn as CME……

……The locomotive that Harrison would have designed would have been a 4-8-2 with a round top boiler pressed at 275 psi, three cylinders 21in by 26 in stroke, driving wheels 6ft 4 in diameter, Caprotti valve gear ( independent to each cylinder), automatic stoker, single shot lubrication wherever possible and a corridor tender……

..Harrison's three cylinder simple would have been a stage towards a much more revolutionary engine….another 4-8-2 but this would have been a four cylinder compound with the high pressure of 400 psi and a water tube firebox…..There is every possibility that Harrison's proposed compound would have developed more drawbar power than the 'Deltic' diesels.'

to put things into perspective just how massive a 400psi compound-mountain would be, even my friends from the US were amazed at the supposed power of such a beast, which is saying something considering they had the likes of the Big Boys and Alleghenys.

Looking through this very site, specifically this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6761

I've also stumbled upon the following drawing



this is good for getting an idea of the general size of the loco, though I imagine it would have been more like a Peppercorn Pacific, rather than semi-air smoothed like a P2.


in addition to this, I'm also imagining he would have designed some other locomotives to fill in the roles of heavy frieght and heavy mixed traffic. so the Harrison roster is as follows:

I1 class heavy passenger 4-8-2 allocated numbers 200-299 (Accepting suggestions for names)
I2 class high pressure compound 4-8-2 allocated numbers 300-399
H1 class heavy frieght 4-8-4 allocated numbers 400-499
T2 class heavy mixed traffic 4-8-0 allocated numbers 600-699

The I2 would have used the air smoothed casing shown in the diagram above

The H1 (the last of the H class 4-4-4s were withdrawn by 1947) used a chassis based on an O1 but with the addition of 4 wheel leading and trailing trucks, and the same cylinders, valve gear and boiler as the I1, only minus the smoke deflectors.

The T2 was based upon the Peppercorn/Thompson K1, utilising the same 5ft 2in drivers and 3ft 2in leading wheels. however it uses a larger, tapered boiler and caprotti valve gear. all but the last batch (Numbers 682-699) were named.

The T2/2 is a variant built with the Scottish lines in mind, fitted with a snowplow and a smoke box door mounted high intensity American style headlamp for winter conditions, later a batch of unnamed T2/2s, numbers 682-699, were allocated to areas of England most prone to bad snow, specifically Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and the Pennines. During the notoriously famous winter of '63 a number of T2/2s from across the LNER's network were even temporarily sent across borders to assist the other railways with the bad conditions, particularly in LMS-controlled areas of Scotland and GWR-controlled Wales.

the tender for all four of these classes are 7000 gallon tenders fitted with a bogie to help them negotiate corners similar to the Tenders used by the Big Boys. This vastly increased fuel capacity and the use of mechanical stokers enabled the 4-8-2s to run non-stop on Anglo Scottish expresses, setting new average speed records.

A fascinating 'what if' scenario. However, I would question whether there would have been further O4 to O1 rebuilds. The problem with these, as with the Q4 to Q1T rebuilds would've been that several of the key components would have been very old but this point. Had the LNER emerged from the war in a stable financial position, I would have thought that focus would have been on direct replacements of these machines. An O1 with the later stepped front end arrangement and a late style group standard tender could be a good way to represent a 'new build' O1.

Another bit of history to play with would be the reinstatement of the streamliner services. The Silver Jubilee, Coronation and West Riding sets could have been brought back into service as complete formations, maybe with some thought to some new liveries for the sets...

If the LNER had continued, what would general coaching stock have ended up looking like under Peppercorn and would the lining have been reinstated? If Gresley hadn't died, what wonders would he have produced under wartime conditions? So many possibilities...

Atso wrote:A fascinating 'what if' scenario. However, I would question whether there would have been further O4 to O1 rebuilds. The problem with these, as with the Q4 to Q1T rebuilds would've been that several of the key components would have been very old but this point. Had the LNER emerged from the war in a stable financial position, I would have thought that focus would have been on direct replacements of these machines. An O1 with the later stepped front end arrangement and a late style group standard tender could be a good way to represent a 'new build' O1.

Another bit of history to play with would be the reinstatement of the streamliner services. The Silver Jubilee, Coronation and West Riding sets could have been brought back into service as complete formations, maybe with some thought to some new liveries for the sets...

If the LNER had continued, what would general coaching stock have ended up looking like under Peppercorn and would the lining have been reinstated? If Gresley hadn't died, what wonders would he have produced under wartime conditions? So many possibilities...

1. in regards to the O1 I did say "with some amendments to the design", which in this case would be replacement of the worn/ill-suited parts, as I recall Thompson kept the original drive-rods from the O4, which weren't designed to withstand the stresses of external valve gear and thus caused problems, this would be one such aspect covered by "amendments". I will have to tackle a new build O1 at some point though, it should be an interesting beasty, but a rather simple project requiring minimal alterations to the body. and the fact that, being direct replacements, they would have simply taken the numbers left by the O4 makes things simpler regarding numbering them.

2.the reinstatement of Streamliners was something I planned to tackle at some point...though an interesting prospect as I'll be limited to six coaches.

3. as far as designers are concerned, the History of the LNER is as with real history up to 1948, that's where this diverges from the established norm. So Gresley still died in office, Thompson still took over and had his way with the A1, V2s and P2s and Peppercorn still succeeded Thompson only to die in office like Gresley.

4. In regards to coaching stock, I did put out a basic livery outline a couple posts back, they would have been a lined "teak-like" brown colour, with wooden bodies stock also being painted this way, I imagine that by 1950 varnished teak, though a very beautiful appearance, was looking rather dated by comparison to the maroons, greens, creams and browns of the other three companies. and was probably time consuming.

and you're right about the possibilities, once you start stepping into the realm of "what if" with the intention to represent it in model form, the world is literally your oyster. Of course everyone has their own opinions one what would have happened had BR never occurred, and someone is bound to find fault with this, this is simply my view of what might have happened based upon evidence of the LNERs plans post war and guessing using European and American railway history to fill in the gaps.

I do plan to start tackling projects relating to this at some point, probably starting with something simple, like a new-build O1 (O1/2?) or, even simpler, a Peppercorn A1 in LNER livery, then slowly developing from there. I think I've got an O1 with a ruined tender, which would make a prime candidate for a project like this

One thing I've been struggling with in regards to the Harrison 4-8-2 is the names, obviously the class prototype would be J. F. Harrison. But I feel that, given the size of the locomotive, racehorses wouldn't be grand enough. so I'm torn between a mix of mountains and, rather appropriately, Giants of mythology.

I'm considering at the very least Greek titans like Atlas and Prometheus, with Giants from other cultures being included in later batches. Although I get the feeling that Og from the book of Numbers wouldn't be included due to the sheer ridiculousness of having a locomotive named "Og" ...

I'm accepting suggestions if anyone has any

Edit: I've put together a list of names to allocate to the 100 I1 "Simple" 4-8-2. ordered in a number of distinct batches, these are not supposed to be taken as gospel nor are they specifically related to the UK (except for mountains and hills), I only chose them going through the internet looking for names from a given topic that sound evocative enough to be worthy of a named engine:

#200 class prototype "J. F. Harrison"

#201 - 240 British mountains and hills (Alphabetical order)

#241 - 257 Greek Titans (Omitting those already used on LNER locomotive eg; "Hyperion")

#258 - 273 Giants of British mythology (a mix of English, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish arranged in alphabetical order)

#274 - 299 Mythological creatures, especially large ones

the full document can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Nova wrote:Post War steam locomotive classes

I've also stumbled upon the following drawing



this is good for getting an idea of the general size of the loco, though I imagine it would have been more like a Peppercorn Pacific, rather than semi-air smoothed like a P2.

My model of the above :-

Manxman1831 wrote: My model of the above :-

Very nice, I'll still be having the un-airsmoother version as the regular loco, but I may have to actually have a go at doing that, maybe for certain services that are between regular named expresses and full blown streamliners, using regular steel bodied Thompson coaches painted in a distinctive livery. Maybe for tourist trains like those used on the West Highland line, with their green and cream coaching stock

I've got a small update, no models, but it is a step towards visualising the world I intend to create.

I recently stumbled across a website that allows you to colourise photos using a suitable pallet, let's say a colour photo. obviously my mind went to utilising it for my planned layout.

so I set to work on a colouration of LMS 10000 (I know it's not LNER, humour me on this) as it may have looked in continued service under Ivatt and, later perhaps, Robert Riddles, replacing Black and Chrome with Maroon and Brass, in keeping the traditional colours but adding a little flair that I like to think suits it well. No doubt I'll be attempting this at some point (as soon as I can find some realistic brass paint...)

As can be seen the photo copyright is clearly stated, and no fraud is intended, with the photo merely being used for demonstrative purposes and personal entertainment

Nova wrote:I've got a small update, no models, but it is a step towards visualising the world I intend to create.

I recently stumbled across a website that allows you to colourise photos using a suitable pallet, let's say a colour photo. obviously my mind went to utilising it for my planned layout.

so I set to work on a colouration of LMS 10000 (I know it's not LNER, humour me on this) as it may have looked in continued service under Ivatt and, later perhaps, Robert Riddles, replacing Black and Chrome with Maroon and Brass, in keeping the traditional colours but adding a little flair that I like to think suits it well. No doubt I'll be attempting this at some point (as soon as I can find some realistic brass paint...)

As can be seen the photo copyright is clearly stated, and no fraud is intended, with the photo merely being used for demonstrative purposes and personal entertainment

Please, Tell all this website address as I've got a few things that i'd like to do to some engines.....
Oh and by the way, for your question about the names of the Mountains, I personally would be naming them after Dreadnoughts, just for the fact that these would probably would usher in a new era of steam, or Greek Mythological Creatures as Suggested by yourself, Nova

here you go

http://www.colorizephoto.com/

Looking forward to photos of your complete version of Coalby & Marblethorpe.

DonnyRailMan wrote:Looking forward to photos of your complete version of Coalby & Marblethorpe.

thank you, hopefully I'll have videos as well