On my workbench - Raven A2 Pacific
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
The lining of the wheels and some of the loco body lining has been done with spring bow compasses or bow pen and gloss humbrol enamels. A photo of the tools is attached.
To explain in a little more detail before painting the wheels have a centre dimple put on the axle ends to give the point of the compasses something to register into. When it comes to the lining the black circle is done first and then a minimum of 24 hours later the white line is done. The paint is used neat from the tin as it flows nicely but does not bleed.
On the loco, taking the red running plate line as an example , the straight lines have been done with the bow pen. Then the compasses are used to to do the curved portions. The point of the compasses is replaced with a piece of parallel brass wire that protrudes beyond the tip of the pen. Loaded with paint the pen tip is set very close to, but not touching, the brass wire. I then run the bottom edge of the brass wire along the bottom of the running plate whilst keeping the tip of the pen in contact with the model. All being well a nice smooth curved line results that follows the contour of the running plate.
I has taken me quite a long time to get proficient with hand lining techniques but the results, I feel, are worth it. It really makes you appreciate how incredibly skilled people like Ian Rathbone and Alan Brackenborough are. I've chickened out in a number of places on this model and resorted to transfers.
Cheers....Morgan
To explain in a little more detail before painting the wheels have a centre dimple put on the axle ends to give the point of the compasses something to register into. When it comes to the lining the black circle is done first and then a minimum of 24 hours later the white line is done. The paint is used neat from the tin as it flows nicely but does not bleed.
On the loco, taking the red running plate line as an example , the straight lines have been done with the bow pen. Then the compasses are used to to do the curved portions. The point of the compasses is replaced with a piece of parallel brass wire that protrudes beyond the tip of the pen. Loaded with paint the pen tip is set very close to, but not touching, the brass wire. I then run the bottom edge of the brass wire along the bottom of the running plate whilst keeping the tip of the pen in contact with the model. All being well a nice smooth curved line results that follows the contour of the running plate.
I has taken me quite a long time to get proficient with hand lining techniques but the results, I feel, are worth it. It really makes you appreciate how incredibly skilled people like Ian Rathbone and Alan Brackenborough are. I've chickened out in a number of places on this model and resorted to transfers.
Cheers....Morgan
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rob
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
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Outstanding work Morgan,and I have learned a lot,some very useful tips re building and painting here!Not only that but I thought I knew these locos-never spotted the front frames were lined green!
With regards to the firebox lining,Vintage LNER Magazine no's 22 and 23 had a comprehensive article on the class .On P3 of 22 there is a reasonably clear photo of 2400 at Gateshead,described as a later view with Westinghouse removed and cabside no.In this photo there does not appear to be lining on the firebox.My Yeadons is not accessible at the moment but I presume you have scoured this already!Sorry but I have no way of scanning this as Jonathan was kindly able to do for me with a J12 photo some time back,but I hope it is some help.
With regards to the firebox lining,Vintage LNER Magazine no's 22 and 23 had a comprehensive article on the class .On P3 of 22 there is a reasonably clear photo of 2400 at Gateshead,described as a later view with Westinghouse removed and cabside no.In this photo there does not appear to be lining on the firebox.My Yeadons is not accessible at the moment but I presume you have scoured this already!Sorry but I have no way of scanning this as Jonathan was kindly able to do for me with a J12 photo some time back,but I hope it is some help.
Thanks Rob. I quite enjoy passing on my modelling experiences and techniques. It is pleasing to know that others might be getting something useful out of it.
I actually don't have a copy of the appropriate Yeadon's volume and the LNER magazine you mention sounds interesting. Is there anybody else out there that might be able to help out with a copy of the article? I'll be quite happy to cover the cost of any copying/postage etc...
The references that I have used are Vol. 2A of the green books, Locomotives Illustrated No. 93 and part 1 of the Michael Bonavia History of the LNER.
Cheers....Morgan
I actually don't have a copy of the appropriate Yeadon's volume and the LNER magazine you mention sounds interesting. Is there anybody else out there that might be able to help out with a copy of the article? I'll be quite happy to cover the cost of any copying/postage etc...
The references that I have used are Vol. 2A of the green books, Locomotives Illustrated No. 93 and part 1 of the Michael Bonavia History of the LNER.
Cheers....Morgan
Hi
I have Yeadon volume. Which Loco are you modelling? There are only a few photos of the A2.
2402 3/4 view appears to have firebox lined. Westinghouse fitted, Tender with number underneath LNER ,frames lined in front of Smokebox
2403 better view definatley lined as above.
2400 3/4 view again poor but appears to have firebox lined etc Westinghouse fitted numbers on tender
Hope this helps
Mick
I have Yeadon volume. Which Loco are you modelling? There are only a few photos of the A2.
2402 3/4 view appears to have firebox lined. Westinghouse fitted, Tender with number underneath LNER ,frames lined in front of Smokebox
2403 better view definatley lined as above.
2400 3/4 view again poor but appears to have firebox lined etc Westinghouse fitted numbers on tender
Hope this helps
Mick
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rob
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:19 pm
- Location: Cork Ireland
Hello Morgan,
I have acessed Yeadon's,the relevant Locos Illustrated and RCTS Vol as well as Vintage LNER magazine.Interesting,but I'm afraid not conclusive.Certainly the shots in photographic grey show no lining on the forebox of any of them,2400 in NER greyc1922,2402 in LNER grey c1924(one of the photos shows 2404 but is apparently a Stalinesque re-touching of the original plate for 2402!) .I read the other photos in Yeadons exactly as Mick does and by the way get the impression Willie Yeadon had little time for the class,poorly represented for such interesting locos.In particular the shot of 2403 on top of p5 of Yeadon clearly shows the firebox lined and I think this is significant.All the in service photos in Locos Illustrated though larger and clearer than any others are at such an angle that its not possible to judge.The RCTS vol is equally unhelpful,so I am left with Vintage LNER.
I am happy that the photo of 2400 mentioned earlier looks unlined on the firebox- but then on close inspection you cannot see the lining on the last boiler band either,so it could be the angle.Its possibly absent from 2403 on p14 but equally a small but lovely shot of 2402 at York loco beside 2579 appears to show lining!
Hazarding a guess,but very much a guess,I think it may have been omitted from the works photos in the interest of symmetry,as the firebox is so short,but was probably present in service.
I am more positive the frames were always green,even late in the day and with Gresley boilers which certainly had their firebox lining.If its any help there are some very clear photos of the Atlantics in Locos Ill. and all show firebox lining so I would assume there was no technical problem with the paint that would have precluded using it on the Pacific fireboxes.
So I'm afraid at the end of the day I'm probably as much use as any comission of enquiry,and I cannot come up with a conclusive answer!
On a more positive note,the lining could easily be added (or painted out!)at a later date if more definite information presents itself.Look forward to the completed job,whatever you go with it will be spectacular!
I have acessed Yeadon's,the relevant Locos Illustrated and RCTS Vol as well as Vintage LNER magazine.Interesting,but I'm afraid not conclusive.Certainly the shots in photographic grey show no lining on the forebox of any of them,2400 in NER greyc1922,2402 in LNER grey c1924(one of the photos shows 2404 but is apparently a Stalinesque re-touching of the original plate for 2402!) .I read the other photos in Yeadons exactly as Mick does and by the way get the impression Willie Yeadon had little time for the class,poorly represented for such interesting locos.In particular the shot of 2403 on top of p5 of Yeadon clearly shows the firebox lined and I think this is significant.All the in service photos in Locos Illustrated though larger and clearer than any others are at such an angle that its not possible to judge.The RCTS vol is equally unhelpful,so I am left with Vintage LNER.
I am happy that the photo of 2400 mentioned earlier looks unlined on the firebox- but then on close inspection you cannot see the lining on the last boiler band either,so it could be the angle.Its possibly absent from 2403 on p14 but equally a small but lovely shot of 2402 at York loco beside 2579 appears to show lining!
Hazarding a guess,but very much a guess,I think it may have been omitted from the works photos in the interest of symmetry,as the firebox is so short,but was probably present in service.
I am more positive the frames were always green,even late in the day and with Gresley boilers which certainly had their firebox lining.If its any help there are some very clear photos of the Atlantics in Locos Ill. and all show firebox lining so I would assume there was no technical problem with the paint that would have precluded using it on the Pacific fireboxes.
So I'm afraid at the end of the day I'm probably as much use as any comission of enquiry,and I cannot come up with a conclusive answer!
On a more positive note,the lining could easily be added (or painted out!)at a later date if more definite information presents itself.Look forward to the completed job,whatever you go with it will be spectacular!
Mick, Rob,
Thanks for looking through Yeadon's etc... for me. It's a shame that we can't find an answer to the question. I did notice that all the Atlantics appeared to have lined fireboxes (even in works grey) and this is why I have been deliberating over this. I also found this photo on John Brighton's website. But the second photo shows 2402 ex works from Darlington. You can see the boiler is lined. Also the cab edge and firebox base but why can't you see anything on the firebox itself. I think I'll line round the base of the firebox see how it looks and then decide.
cheers....Morgan
Thanks for looking through Yeadon's etc... for me. It's a shame that we can't find an answer to the question. I did notice that all the Atlantics appeared to have lined fireboxes (even in works grey) and this is why I have been deliberating over this. I also found this photo on John Brighton's website. But the second photo shows 2402 ex works from Darlington. You can see the boiler is lined. Also the cab edge and firebox base but why can't you see anything on the firebox itself. I think I'll line round the base of the firebox see how it looks and then decide.
cheers....Morgan
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Last edited by 45609 on Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rob
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 1:19 pm
- Location: Cork Ireland
I enjoyed the research and must confess to a vested interest anyway!Your plan of action is certainly the best approach,especially in the light of Micks photo not showing lining.Did you notice the kink in the footplate of the kit built loco?Very similar to my example,must have been a problem area for some builders,leaves the loco very distorted looking,I hope I will be able to rectify mine when rebuilding.Keep us posted!
Hi Mick,
Thanks for letting me know. It's just typical that now I've finished the model another picture turns up. I'm glad I didn't line the firebox. A few pictures of the finished loco are attached.
Cheers.....Morgan
Thanks for letting me know. It's just typical that now I've finished the model another picture turns up. I'm glad I didn't line the firebox. A few pictures of the finished loco are attached.
Cheers.....Morgan
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