Hornby Gresley Full Brake

[Green Nigel]

I love the new Hornby non corridors but I haven't got any use for them. After twelve years of building carriages and locomotives for Leicester, is just one ity bity accurate model of a Gresley BG too much ask for. Finescale modellers have feelings too you know.

[mick b]

Because the consensus is, we will gladly pay a premium price for a second rate model. And I am odd for believing that Hornby should have produced an accurate model of the Gresley BG for the price. Not really much more to say, different worlds gents.

As for Leicester South, some chap on this forum posted a video up on you tube might be in a thread here somewhere or try Googling Leicester South GC.

Many Thanks.

I have no problem with 99% of what you say.
However the Hornbys are not a premium price list @ £45 ish which is under half the cost of a similar MJT which as said before you have to build etc etc . Hornby have no competition as no one else makes LNER Coaches and I consider that we are very luck that Hornby produce them at all! and could quite easily charge much more for them!.
Very few people could build the end result to the standard of Hornby finish. I wonder how many also sit in drawers and are never built or even sold off on ebay.
Again as said before you can get examples of Hornbys for far less than the new list price or secondhand which are not all always sold because the owner wants to build a better version !! .
Many model railway owners dont build anything , they buy rtr or they are luckily enough to be able to pay for other people to build them a railway.
With the continuing quality of rtr less than people will make models as they are dearer to buy and the end result no where as good for some people.

I have found Leicester South on You tube .
Looks a very nice EM layout which again many modellers wouldnt consider building in that gauge due to restriction of space between wheels for valve gear and the extra costs involved for track etc.
I model OO and wouldnt consider EM for those reasons alone, as again using DCC has no interest to me due to the costs involved.

[Atlantic 3279]

Won't it always be the case that different modellers have different ways of looking at things and will come to different conclusions about "best methods", "acceptable standards" and "best value"? That doesn't necessarily make one view universally right and the other totally wrong. Sometimes we pick up useful ideas from those whose approach to modelling may seem in every other way to be at odds with our own. Sharing ideas and discussing the merits and snags of different approaches is useful, but is it best not to get too wound up about the points on which we disagree?

I hardly dare mention Leicester South again after the roasting I got 18 months ago for offering a critical opinion of its first presentation, but isn't that OO "finescale" as opposed to EM? That's what the club website says.

[strang steel]

I agree. I think it is rather sad that those who have neither the time, inclination or money to model everything to finescale standards are somehow looked down upon by those who do.

I am aware of the shortcomings in detail regarding certain rolling stock, because I read reviews in the model press and online; I do not need it to be mentioned at every available opportunity with the implication that as I do not demand perfection at all times then I am somehow a second class modeller.

I have built some Kirk and Mailcoach kits, but I would prefer to purchase them ready made, straight out of the box at £50 or less, because my enthusiasm comes from the operation - not the construction. If that makes me a "player with trains" rather than a "railway modeller" then thanks for that rather arrogant distinction.

I wish to create the atmosphere of the past as features in my memory, and if that includes certain inaccuracies then so be it, as my memory is far from perfect anyway. However, it allows me to indulge in my fantasy of time travel back to an era when I could watch real trains; except that this time there are no bored parents saying "right, come on - it's time to go home now".

I can have the Harwich - Manchester crawl into the station behind a tender first WD towing a failed Britannia and its train, if I want to, because it is my railway and occasionally these things happened. I will mix Thompson, Gresley and Mark1 stock in the same train, and even the occasional Stanier (despite the vestibule connection problems), because I don't remember uniform trains of one particular origin until the early to mid 1960s.

While I am amazed by models such as Leicester South, and acknowledge all the hard work in research and construction involved, it will never conjure up the past as I remember it in that area, mainly because everything is far too clean.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Thankfully railway modelling is a broad church. I knew a chap who built baseboards. Wonderful things they were, good ply, well braced and made to measure to the millimetre. He'd charge only for the ply used but it would take him anything up to a year to produce a Club layout. Thing was, that was where he got his kicks. He had a model railway, fully scenic, that sat under dust covers because operating wasn't really his thing. Neither was building trains. Or scenery. Other people used to play trains for him.

If you don't want to build, who says you have to? I rarely build locos these days - I can't compete with the Chinese either on price or appearance, so why bother at all? Well, with a bargain kit off a Club stand, that's the challenge!

[Green Nigel]

My augment is not about a comparison of ready to run stock vs kit built stock, nor have I sort to introduce this line of thinking, my argument is with the Hornby product, all I would like to see is RTR stock that will stand comparison with the likes of MJT. It's not hard, Hornby have proved they can do it if they really want to. The comparison should be made not with MJT kits but with contemporary RTR models often manufactured by the same company.

My view is that the Hornby Gresley gangwayed stock is second rate in comparison to the Bachman MK1, Hornbys own Gresley non gangwayed carriages, the same companies Hawksworth carriages, the LMS period three stock and the SR Maunsels.

They are on a par with the Bachman Colletts or the Kirk Gresleys, not in the front rank but this is not reflected in the price being asked. More over Hornby had the opportunity to correct the problems when introducing a new gangwayed carriage to the range and failed to do so.

I cant help but feel that if this had been a Locomotive this situation would not have been tolerated by the majority of people on this board. The attitude seems to be aren't we lucky, well I would say no, the LM chaps are, and so are the GWR boys. After all we are talking about fundamental problems with the basic shape and dimensions here not minor details. The Bachman V2 springs to mind here, the only difference with that model is that it is at last regarded as a poor representation by the majority.

I differ from the majority opinion in that I feel it is not expectable to charge the kind of prices Hornby is asking for models that are not to the same high standards set by other products in their range.

[mick b]

I hardly dare mention Leicester South again after the roasting I got 18 months ago for offering a critical opinion of its first presentation, but isn't that OO "finescale" as opposed to EM? That's what the club website says.[/quote]


Listed as EM on You tube hence my comparisons with gauges etc
Even finescale OO presumably demands handmade points ? Not for me I can happily use Peco code 75 on my layout and build the rolling stock which I much prefer to spend my time on !!.

As to Mailcoach/Kirk being the same as Hornby no way can I agree. I have already listed the faults, IMHO they are not even fit for sale they are that poor. The moulds must be about 30 years old and are of another era and the faults match that era of general modelling standards. They are level with the old Hornby LNER Caoches at best.
If they spend the money to get them to the standard of the Coopercraft wagons, they also sell they would be superb. I have read the owner since taking over a few years ago stating they need updating on a number of occasions, but so far it has not happended, perhaps poor sales and people buying the Hornby versions make them uneconomic for a much needed upgrade.

[Manxman1831]

I think that we need to take a step back from the whole debate and take stock for a minute. This thread began life about the announcement of the production and retailing of the Gresley BG carriage. Yes, there were many unacceptable mistakes with the previous Gresley stock - massive faults with the shape, underframe being too wide, etc with the then-new releases from the Chinese factory (the same factory that allegedly produces the stock and locos for Bachmann as well as Hornby), but there were faults with the much older carriages too.

BUT, as modellers and trainset operators WE bought and ran them with other stock; some quite willing to accept the deficiencies; others who went that one stage further and modified to produce what was acceptable to them. Regardless of whether a layout was considered to be EM or 'finescale', this is what you have to run on it.

It is unfair, in a way, to compare a proprietary model with the equivalent kit-build of the same coach. As a kit-builder, you set yourself certain standards to attain - will the model go around the curves or over the points being the first one (I hope); is it right for what I want; will the model look anything like what I'm aiming for after I've built it - to name but a few. For the commercial outfit designing and producing their models in a ready to run format, they already have their standards set in place - set curves of at least 12-inch radius; standard parts to choose from for everything from handrails to underframes; marketability.

There have got to be compromises thrown into any model - be it the form of coupling we use, right down to whether or not the model should have the chain on the guards doors, just because it is in one picture and not in others.

Yes, I was one of the first to throw my hat in with the crowd against the BG models, based solely on the previous 'new' Gresley coaches which I have seen and operated on the layout at Ruddington. Yes, they were a pig to get to run consistently. Yes, they look a little off when compared to the much older shorties that Margate were offering in the past. Heck, they are expensive when compared to the eight-wheel lighted Pullmans that I was buying for my own trainset. BUT when they are running past at a scale 70-80mph, I don't care. For someone who is far too young to remember them when running, and a lot of our visitors are, they look the part.

When the teaks are coupled up to something apple green or black, and the blood and custard ones are coupled up to something brunswick green or black, they look the part. I hope that Hornby is able to find some way to reduce the width of the underframe in the future in order to further increase the tumblehome, and hence produce more models of different types. I hope that Bachmann could be persuaded to produce a range of Gresley carriages, but based on the reactions to these China-built ones, I doubt they'll bother.

I used to dislike the 'new' Gresleys. Based on the arguments and bickering, I've changed my mind. We wanted scale-length coaches, we got them. We wanted the very latest in detailing techniques, we got them. We want to be able to run 7, 8, 9-coach trains, we've got the stock with the numbers available with very little modification. I now say well-played to Hornby for running the risk. They could be cheaper, though the company does have it's overheads and shareholders to think about, but I say that the compromise has worked, and I hope that they continue to push the boat out and aim to improve the range with more models, as well as improving their existing ones.

[Green Nigel]

QUOTE
While I am amazed by models such as Leicester South, and acknowledge all the hard work in research and construction involved, it will never conjure up the past as I remember it in that area, mainly because everything is far too clean


Not as you remember it perhaps, but on behalf of our scenery and buildings people I must say that twelve years of research has gone into the environment that is Leicester South. This has included the sourcing of original photographs and many hours of interviews of people who worked, lived or train spotted in the area.

One thing that became apparent confirmed by colour photographs from the 1950's was that the residential and industrial structures where remarkable clean in the area. We have had nothing but praise as regards the look of the layout from people who lived along the lineside, shunted the yard or photographed in the area, indeed they have lead the way.

For example a recent visit to the Dairy in the last two months at the north end of the layout revealed that they are still operating the same electric milk floats that would have been a familiar sight in the 1940,s and 50's. Another recent discovery was that the WR set of the York Swansea cross country express in the period it is to be modelled had all over chocolate carriages amongst its chocolate and creams, this will be modelled.

We are serious about what we do, we not make this stuff up.

Wigan will only be Leicester's second proper outing the first being a successful trip to Worcester just one month ago, there is still plenty of work to do but at least we know that we can take it apart hump it cross country put it back together again and it will still works, come see us a Wigan, we may be crap new layouts are a bit like that but we are planning on being just a bit good , either way it should be entertaining.

[strang steel]

Don't worry about it. I am quite happy to be pilloried for having a memory that doesn't quite fit with everybody else's.

[Manxman1831]

Green Nigel, as long as you're running trains and entertaining the masses your crap new layout will be miles better than the rest of the stuff there. I refuse to go to Wigan, and have not been since 2005, because even though they do have some interesting looking layouts, they are spoilt by the operation and attitudes towards visitors - running one train every half-hour or hour is not entertaining to watch no matter how accurate it may be, and standing behind the layout discussing the merits of chain-link as opposed to Triang couplings and ignoring questions from the other side of the fence does not just put people off from going to that one exhibition.

As a layout operator myself, as well as an exhibition visitor, I know that the masses don't care about timetables, and they expect to be able to ask questions regardless how stupid they may seem. I remember the first question I was ever asked, it was by a gent in his twenties and I was 12 at the time - "what does the el, meh, seh stand for on the tankside?" - I was running a Jinty on the Isle of Man model railway society layout of Nailsworth. Now, I admit, given his way of asking it took me a while to work out the answer having grown up hearing el, em, ess, but he got his answer as well as a brief history on the company.

One item more than operators ignoring the public that does annoy me - layouts that are too high for children or wheelchair-bound people to watch. I know that this argument has taken up endless column inches in magazine after magazine, and the 'expert' from Little Bytham gave judgement that we should ignore them and stick to doing things 'our' way, but children are the future of the hobby and should be able to enjoy watching the trains go by just as easily as adults. Likewise with wheelchair users, and I say this from being a carer whose partner could wind up in one, they shouldn't have to crane their necks to peak over scenery and catch a glimpse of maybe a rooftop of a passing coach. Sure, lower layouts are prone to death by rucksack as viewers turn away and take a good chunk of layout with them - be it a building, tree or stock - but that should be dealt with with signs at the entrance asking visitors to take bags off of shoulders.

As for being too clean with your buildings? Forget the detractors. Have a portfolio of photos that you used for viewers to peruse and compare to how you've finished your buildings, and let them judge for themselves.

[2002EarlMarischal]

I feel sorry for the folk in wheelchairs at any of the busy shows - it is clearly a nightmare to get round and as you say most layouts or stands are too high. Not sure what the answer is to the inevitable congestion at popular shows. Perhaps they should open an hour early for disabled folk and their carers and scrap the normal advance purchase early entry benefit.

[manna]

G'Day Gents

As good or bad as the case and argument may be, I've waited 40 years for a RTR Gresley full brake, and now there out of my price range, as are the coaches, so they won't be gracing my layout...........

I'll have to stick with Mr Kirks kits

manna

[60800]

The layouts I can't stand are the small and sometimes large 'boxed' (dead end) layouts. They are just so boring, nothing ever gets past a scale 10mph!

The only exception to this is of course Haymarket cross, which I saw at Hull in 2010. There is always something chugging along

[strang steel]

The layouts I can't stand are the small and sometimes large 'boxed' (dead end) layouts. They are just so boring, nothing ever gets past a scale 10mph!

I dont mind dead end layouts, as long as something happens on them. I have been primed by shows from the distant past where every second layout was a GWR country branch terminus or a small dock scenario, so I am used to seeing them.

However, to run a prototypical service probably only requires a 2 hourly auto train and a daily pick up goods, so inaction is exactly as it was most of the time.

The point is, how far down the road of accuracy do these kinds of layouts go before they bore the audience? Alternatively, do they have something moving all the time and therefore become inaccurate?

The show layouts that do nothing for me personally are narrow gauge (and I mean proper narrow gauge - not the dismissive way some people refer to 16mm). I just cannot get enthusiastic over watching strange little engines with tall chimneys and carriages with verandahs at either end. (Stereotyping. What! Me?)