Atlantic's works: Portable layout - Ground Signals Again

[jwealleans]

In reality, yes. But other plans were stymied by the outbreak of war, if I recall correctly.

[Pebbles]

How about the Baldwin 4 cylinder 2-10-2 proposal of 1914.

[Atlantic 3279]

Okay, as Kyle, Will and Pebbles have already suggested the correct answer, it's time to end the suspense. There's small picture of the proposed loco, as it might have looked, here:
http://www.robinbarnes.net/gallery5.html

Jonathon is also therefore correct about the bogie wagons being the GC type. I'm told it was Sam Fay's idea to use these in much larger quantity for bulk coal export traffic, so perhaps in his ambitious and confident way he thought he could persuade the pit operators to change their loading arrangements, and raise more finance to alter the recently completed export coal hoists at Immingham Dock too. As he wanted to open out Conisborough tunnel to let the loco run unhindered from Wath to Immingham, I suppose he also viewed the other difficulties as quite manageable challenges....

If I can get my other chores done in time, I'll try to post an adaptation of the loco drawing (one that doesn't therefore breach copyright) later on. In order to use a donor loco that I could get in the UK for under a "ton", rather than stretching to £155 or more for a personally imported Walthers Proto 2000 model of a USRA "heavy" 2-10-2 which has a better set of wheel/chassis dimensions, I'm having to reduce the length of the loco by about 6% from true scale, and the coupled wheels will only be 16.5mm dia when they ought to be 18 or 18.6, but I won't tell anybody if you all don't .

If, in due course, it is possible to produce a master for the wagon bodies that can be copied in rubber/resin, then I'll have a go, although I think 15 wagons in a modelled train will be about the limit on my layout. If I understand correctly, Fay had 4000 ton coal trains in mind . Even for 15 wagons, and the loco's tender, I'll need to sort out a shipload of diamond frame bogies, so I won't be wanting to build those from fiddly or flash-laden kits

[S.A.C. Martin]

Rather handsome locomotive at that! Love the oval buffers and those monstrous cylinders.

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

This is going to be soooooooooooooo good!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Isn't it strange, every-time the railways proposed 'big' loco's..a big 'war' breaks out, hope nobody proposes a whacking great Do-Do diesel loco !!!

manna

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

It happened in 1961 (?) with a development of the class 46 which was to have had a 2800hp engine and all eight axles powered. Thankfully, someone had a reality check and put the kybosh on this particular monster and produced instead a specification which led to the class 47.

I believe that full set of engines, gennies and traction motors had been ordered and delivered before said reality check. Oooops!

[Atlantic 3279]

Fear not anyway Manna, the Do-Do is extinct .

I lost too much time on other jobs today to also get the loco drawing organised, but here's a view of one of the GC 40 ton bogie coal wagons. I had, in error, been looking at 30 tonners when I remarked on the diamond frame bogies. The lighter wagons appear to have had planked wooden doors too. This one is much more massive and sturdy in appearance, with steel doors, plate frame bogies, full brake gear, and (I suspect) "reserve stroke" buffers to reduce impact in a collision.
I cannot remember how I received this image file. If it should turn out that somebody feels that I am abusing copyright, I will gladly remove the image or properly attribute it to the copyright owner, as preferred:

[Atlantic 3279]

I will still try to get that loco drawing posted up by the way. At least I got some ther jobs out of the way last evening, seizing the opportunity afforded by good weather to do more exterior house paintwork (yawn), remaking some chimney moulds to maintain production for the needs of Copley Hill shed and others (after cursing as original moulds tore), and spending some time studying, mostly in complete bewilderment , the complex assembly diagram for that USRA 2-10-2 (no written instructions on how to even get the bodies off - I managed with the tender but have yet to succeed with the loco itself) then testing the motor via the sockets under the cab (still working of course) before pulling out the infernal chip and substituting the blanking plugs, whereupon it again ran perfectly - and still with directional lights. Anybody for a freshly fried chip at a discount price?
At least the assembly diagram shows which sockets the blanking plugs go into, if you are clever enough to get at the sockets in the first place

[Blink Bonny]

Ay up!

Freshly fried chip? Only if it comes wi' bits!

[2512silverfox]

Graeme

The official photo of the GC high capacity would have been out of copyright, by the old Copyright Act, by 1945, so do not worry yourself overmuch!

Nick

[Atlantic 3279]

Thanks Nick, any reassurance is always welcome!

There's a (not very clearly copied) drawing of the 40 ton wagon in David Jackson's "J. G. Robinson - A Lifetime's Work", in which text the wagon is also described. I'm now a little confused about the buffers. The drawing refers to Spencer items, although perhaps this only indicates the rubber springs rather than the whole buffer design, as the text attributes the design of the buffers to Robinson. However, they do not seem to be the collision contingency items that were fitted to the coaches, in which the secondary stroke of the buffer became available only after a primary set of bolts had been broken by impact. The wagon buffers are described as being "a buffer within a buffer", the primary buffer having (presumably) normal or soft springing and the secondary spring being heavier, but available for use without the need for broken bolts to release it for action.

My revised-scale non-copyright working drawing for the loco is coming along nicely too, and as an unintended bonus of the compressed scale of length I suspect that by the time I have shortened the tender too the loco may then fit my rather basic turntable, which it certainly won't at present. I am feeling ever-better about by decision not to obtain the much costlier and longer "heavy" 2-10-2 as a basis for the project.

I'm also starting to think that a run of wagons in resin might not be that difficult to manage either. A master body, and a master bogie side will take a bit of making of course, but then most of the body should cast "in one" in a two piece mould, possibly only one bogie side mould need be made, and a mould for one side of the trussing might be useful.

[wehf100]

HMRS seems to have a drawing of the 40 ton wagon pressed-steel bogies. I assume that's the same thing?

http://hmrs.org.uk/drawings/drawinginfo.php?id=10417

By the way- are you shortening the overall length for model railway operational reasons? I suspect somthing like this would have been turned on a triangle rather than a tt. There were some triangles at Immingham weren't there?

Will

[Atlantic 3279]

I'd imagine that is the correct drawing Will, although I'm not sure where Leeds Forge Company comes into it. Jackson states that Birmingham Carriage & Wagon built both the 30 ton batch in 1903 and the 40 ton variety in 1904. The wagons were, it seems, built to Livesey Gould patent designs but the patent was held by the London firm of Livesey, Son & Henderson, not Leeds Forge. Did Leeds Forge built another GC batch not listed by Jackson, or did they perhaps already have drawings of wagons built for another customer which they supplied to the builders of the GC wagons?

The shortening of the loco is only a device to suit the more economically and readily available "light" 2-10-2 donor-loco model, but it does turn out that even with the tender modelled to full length (which I think helps to preserve the "long" look of the combination even with the foreshortened loco) it will then be possible to turn the beast on my TT which just happens to have a 69'6" deck. That is of course way too long for a likely turntable at a country junction station, but I built it that way to make sure I could turn my equally unlikely visiting Pacifics!

There were certainly triangles at Immingham, although I don't know what the curves were on the triangle at the eastern entrance to the dock and the junction with the light railway, right by the loco depot. A trip of not a million miles to Brocklesby Junction would perhaps have been the preferred option, traffic permitting, the curves there being of main line generosity.

[Atlantic 3279]

Okay, time for a drawing:

Firstly, here's a second look at the donor "light" USRA 2-10-2, complete with "outhouse" on the tender (not a very privee privvy....)

This is the adapted general outline to which I will eventually be working (AFTER getting on with my timed A2/3 second conversion)

The length of the loco is redrawn at 3.75mm to the foot, the height remaining full 4mm scale, as this then matches up with key features of the HO donor loco. I'll still have to extend the smokebox and pony truck, replace the cylinders, throw away the Southern valve gear, lower the running plate a little and fit a larger cab. Lots of unwanted US details need to be stripped off. I haven't fully decided whether to keep the US style smokebox door and boiler handrails, or fit a GC style door and modified handrails as if the loco had been to Gorton a time or two. Something at least a little like a Robinson chimney is a must. I'm pretty sure that even if Baldwins had been allowed to go ahead and build the loco with a boiler-top sand dome (shown dotted) , the GC would have whipped that off pretty soon and fitted sand boxes between the frames, so I think I'll keep only the steam dome.
The tender, which I've drawn to full 4mm length, requires a 17 to 18 mm shortening of the Bachmann original, although the tank height is okay if a new "sides and rear" coping plate is fitted in lieu of what's already there. A rear coal plate, load of coal, buffers, drawhook and diamond frame bogies should finish the job. I'm not going to get analytical or fussy about the rivet pattern on the tank-sides!