Ways of modelling a P1?

45609 · Post by **45609** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:27 pm

Can anybody help me with this please?

I seem to recall that not so long ago there was an article in one of the modelling magazines (might have been RM) about how to build a P1 2-8-2 from other donor RTR parts. The problem I have is that I don't buy RM every month and so far I have been unsuccessful in tracking it down in my collection of mags. Can anyone confirm if my recollection is right and perhaps help out with a copy of the article?

I'm trying to assess the feasibility of building a P1 in this way and therefore I'm after any material that might assist. So, if anyone also knows of any earlier modelling articles about the P1 I'd be most grateful.

Thanks...Morgan

Post by **richard** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:33 pm

I don't think it was Railway Modeller - I'm a subscriber and I don't remember seeing the article. Can't help with the other "newstand" mags as I don't subscribe (well I've just started one with I think it is Model Rail, but the first issue has yet to arrive)

Richard

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:13 pm

Morgan,

I have not seen the article either, but I can suggest the following.

First find a good drawing.

Clearly you start off with a Hornby A1/A3 body and a Bachmann Group standard tender from a B1, K3 or a V2.
For frames you could try Alan Gibson, he lists them in his catalogue: GLM1-231 or GLM1-252 (no trailing truck). Alan can be contacted at 01603 715862.

Then you need a set of 5'2" driving wheels and axles, try Markits for 21mm size.

You would have to drop the footplate and fit longer outside steam pipes and a higher smokebox saddle.

The P1 cylinders and valve gear were the same as the Gresley A1 and so it might just fit, but I think you will be on your own with the coupling rods.

Motor, gearbox and flywheel to suit your taste.

Then all you need is a 100 coal wagons to give it a scale length 1,600 ton train.

Colombo

rob · Post by **rob** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:07 pm

Bingo!RM April1992,p162, it is sitting on my shelf because I was contemplating such an attempt last summer,and had got as far as drawing up a list of SEF bits needed to make it sit in with my A1 etc and had obtained their spares list.I may yet go ahead,especially if you lead the way!
In fact had I checked the site this morning I could have had it photocopied,I got the GCR coaches done for Bass and Jon(July 1978!)-it could be sometime again before I'm in town but will do it first chance.Essentially you get a loco built to match the then standards of Hornby,but very neatly done.There is a drawing,I would guess prepared by the builder and I wouldn't vouch for accuracy,it seems more like a working drawing within the constraints of the parts used.I have my late uncles 1945 Skinley drawing in 7mm and the tender in particular shows big differences-if I am correct,they had essentially a 6 wheeled version of the 8 wheel tender dimensions with altered tops.
BRM also did a feature at some stage on the prototypes(with one amazing colour shot of a clean P1 at speed)and a more accurate 4mm drawing,but I assume its available from Isinglass for real accuracy.
Most odd,Crownline intended producing a full kit-I enquired some time ago and he said they didn't proceed,only 3 enquiries and I was one

so please give it a go! I will try to find BRM,should be reasonably accessible,and get bact to you asap.

Post by **richard** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:57 pm

Ah that's why I wasn't aware of it - 1992 is almost 10 years before I started my subscription!

Richard

45609 · Post by **45609** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:09 pm

Hi Rob,

I just knew you'd be able to find it for me

although I'm sure there was something more recent than 1992. Maybe it was the BRM article. Definitely no rush but if your willing to copy for me then I'd be most grateful.

I was thinking along the lines of Colombo's advice. Certainly the P1 Isinglass drawing is the first port of call and a copy of the A1/A3 for comparison. However I have a few concerns about lowering the running plate particularly where the rear 'S' curve drops the level under the firebox/cab. I guess there would be a similar sort of problem with the running plate in front of the smokebox. Comparing some photos of the P1 and A3 it seems that the cylinder level is lower on the P1 which, I guess, is also logical considering the smaller driving wheel diameter. The tender appears to be another can of worms as I don't think a Bachmann GS would do. The green book says that the P1 tender wheel base is symmetrical at 6'6" x 6'6" which is not the same GS at 7'3" x 6'3". also the body looks much longer and taller (not to mention curved corners and asymmetric top profile).

I can see this rapidly degenerating into a scratch build. Perhaps the only donor parts would be the cab and boiler from a Hornby A3. Better get in touch with Alan Gibson before he packs up to see if he'll make me some frames.

Cheers...Morgan.

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:37 am

Morgan,

I see that you are not willing to make many compromises. That's good.

The two tenders built for the P1s were indeed different to the GS design. I had not noticed that these tenders were later fitted to Thompson B2s. (The LNER encyclopedia is useful). Interesting trivia question there!

Will you be modelling the P1 with or without the booster?

No.2394 was tested on passenger duty: speeds of up to 65mph were attained on the 7.45 a.m. semi-fast King's X to Peterborough.

Colombo

45609 · Post by **45609** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 12:21 pm

Hi Colombo,

Yes I'm afraid to admit to being painfully pedantic when it comes to modelling and sometime it doesn't help when I'm trying to do things to a budget.

Probably go for a model without the booster otherwise I might have to motorise it!

Seriously though I read a bit more of the green book last night and it appears that the valve gear, cylinders, front pony and driving wheelbase was identical to the O2 2-8-0. I also called Alan and it seems the refs you gave me are for P2 and not the P1. However he is prepared to still do some profile milling so I think I'll get something drawn up and off to him.

Cheers....Morgan

mick b · Post by **mick b** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:00 pm

Hi

Of course you could always go the easier route?

e.g there is a built one on Ebay this week

good luck Mick

45609 · Post by **45609** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:04 pm

Hi Mick

I have seen it. I can't say that it looks particularly well put together or painted. I guess it could be stripped down and rebuilt but I suspect it will sell for something that exceeds what it is worth. I'm not sure I feel that it would be an easier route considering the work that would be required to bring it up to scratch. Out of interest can anybody suggest who's kit it has been made from? I assume it is pretty old.

Morgan

mick b · Post by **mick b** » Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:35 pm

Hi
I agree re build quality , however it might put buyers off so you may get a result?
A total strip down etc but at least you will have all the correct parts! Even changing the motor position would be a great improvement
My guess a Nu Cast kit but total guess

Mick

Atso · Post by **Atso** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:27 am

Hi guys,

Just out of question, how was the P1 developed? My understanding is that the P1 was basicly a O2 frames with larger wheels, an A1 boiler cab and trailing truck. If that is the case couldn't an Nucast O2 chassis be used along with a the boiler and cab from an A1? The running plate with it's reverse curves might be a problem - I once built a (unfinished) K3 in OO before my move to N gauge using the running plate and cab from a Hornby B17 - might this be the way forward?

jwealleans · Post by **jwealleans** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:50 am

Didn't Crownline do a conversion kit to make one? I can't say I've ever seen one and don't know what the donor loco would be, but I'm sure I've seen the conversion kits on Ebay. Might be worth asking Dave King what was supplied and what he based it on.

That one on Ebay has a homemade look about it to me: I've never heard of a kit for a P1.

45609 · Post by **45609** » Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:15 pm

I did contact PDK a few weeks ago and received this response

Yes we did produce the P1 as a conversion for a Hornby Scotsman body. Unfortunately we don't have any parts left from the kits. Some customers have had luck looking on ebay for old kits, so that might be your best bet

45609 · Post by **45609** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 9:39 pm

Today I have produced this drawing of the P1 frames using the Isinglass drawing as a guide. I'll get this off to Alan Gibson soon but before I do are there any thoughts on the layout or anything I might have missed?

My current thinking on the rest of the loco is as follows,

Ask PDK if they will sell me the valve gear, rods and cylinders as spares from their O2 kit.

Frame spacers made from double sided copper clad.

Hornby A1/A3 plastic body for cab and boiler. Running plate, smokebox saddle and frames above running plate to be scratch built.

Castings etc...from various sources.

There is no real way to do the tender with donor RTR parts so I've decided that this will have to be a complete scratch build. I will however get some frames done by Alan Gibson.

Cheers...Morgan