Train formation

[Stephen Rich]

Have just purchased the Master Cutler by Hornby and wish to know the carriage configuration for this service.Thanking you in advance.

[Colombo]

Stephen,

The best source of information that I know is at: http://www.semg.org.uk/coach/coupe/coupe005.rtf

They state that the formation in 1959 was:

1959 Master Cutler
Kings X. 2nd Bk / 2nd K (N) / 1st P / 1st K (N) / 1st K (S) / 2nd Bk
Notes. Positions of kitchens. (N) = North, (S) = South. I Hope this will be of help.

Also, I suggest that you have a look at the Precision Labels Web site on:
http://www.precisionlabels.com/.

Colombo

[Stephen Rich]

Colombo, thanks for the help and the two web sites were helpfully, problem is I already have the Hornby BR Gresley coach's, so my train is at persent made up of a brake, 1st coach, 1st coach,buffet,3rd coach,3rd coach, brake. Would like to know what other coach's it should have.

Stephen

[Colombo]

Stephen,

I have only recently tried to get to grips with Pullmans myself. This is now my understanding:

Unlike BR ordinary carriage rakes, which were made up of first and second class accommodation with a buffet car, or perhaps a kitchen car and a dining car, Pullman rakes were made up of mostly kitchen firsts and kitchen seconds. They added parlour firsts and parlour seconds to provide additional capacity.

You will see from the formation that I copied into my previous post that you really need at least a first kitchen and a second kitchen in place of one first parlour and one second parlour car. I am not sure what your buffet is.

If you are collecting Hornby cars, you are modelling pre-1961 when the Mk1 Pullmans were introduced as per the Bachmann model. No Mk1 brake seconds were built and so they carried on using the smooth sided wooden bodied at the ends of the rakes of Mk1s until about 1965, when they were also withdrawn and then they had to use Mk1 BGs.

There were only a few brown and cream Mk1 BGs, which were on the Western Region, everybody else had to use BR Maroon. The maroon looked pretty awful next to umber and cream Pullmans and so the Southern Region pinched a brown and cream BG from the Western Region when it strayed their way. The WR demanded it be returned.

Colombo

[robertcwp]

This reply might be a bit late but...

The Hornby set referred to in the opening post is I believe one of their train packs and intended to represent the Master Cutler in its GC incarnation. The title transferred to the GN in 1958 when the King's Cross-Sheffield Pullman was introduced.

In the crimson/cream era on the GC, and when Gresley stock was used, the Cutler formation was:

BTK(4), 3 TK(7), CK(3-3), RTP, RF, FO(42), 2 FK(36), BCK (2-3).

On Saturdays, an extra Third was included and one FK omitted. The additional Third also ran on Mondays (not sure for how long).

(4), (7) etc show number of compartments, (42) is number of sets in open vehicle.

From 20 June 1949, the RTP/RF were replaced by a Bulleid Tavern Car pair. The Bulleid RCO disappeared fairly quickly but the Tavern Car Dolphin remained in the train for several months. A Gresley dining pair then returned to the set.

The stock was Gresley end-door. The Master Cutler was one of the first trains to be repainted in crimson/cream in 1949 and the style used on the set differed from that adopted as standard for Gresley stock in that the crimson panel extended further up the body side to just below the windows. The normal style was to have a slightly deeper cream panel so that the livery division lined up with Thompson stock.

Hornby's 'Gresley' coaches represent older types and are not correct for the Cutler set.

Some Thompson stock had appeared in the train by 1951 and from 1952 Mark I stock made up most of the set other than the dining pair, which remained RTP/RF and the BCK (the Mark I BCK did not appear until 1954). Around 1955-6, an ex-Coronation Twin-First appeared in the train.

[Matt D]

I think there was an article in a recent Model Rail on this subject. I think it only had examples using Pullman stock, though. It contained sample formations, though, so it may be of some help.

I don't have access to the issue number at the moment, sadly, as my copy is currently about 80 miles away.

[robertcwp]

I think there was an article in a recent Model Rail on this subject. I think it only had examples using Pullman stock, though. It contained sample formations, though, so it may be of some help.

I don't have access to the issue number at the moment, sadly, as my copy is currently about 80 miles away.

April 2008 for the East Coast Pullmans (1960 cars).
Summer 2009 for GC expresses in BR days part one (London trains).

I was the author. GC part two (non-London trains over London Extension) coming in a few months' time.

[Matt D]

Ah, well there you go.

Good work, that man.