Hi to every member. I would be grateful if a member could let me know when the up and down goods lines was taken up between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City. Thank you in advance.
Regards Western 91.
Goods Lines
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
Re: Goods Lines
With regards to the Up goods line between WGC (box) & Hatfield No.2 (box) that line was originally the Hatfield-WGC-Hertford bi-directional single line although after the passenger service finished between Hatfield-WGC-Hertford during the early 1950s it was converted into the Up goods line between WGC (box) & Hatfield No.2 (box) but this basically ended abruptly in 1966 when the Wrestlers bridge partially collapsed north of Hatfield station 'cutting the line' in two although as for when the Up goods line track was actually lifted from memory sometime during the late 1960s it was cut up into shorter lengths between the Twentieth Mile bridge (south of WGC station) and Hatfield and was then craned out and onto flat bogie bolster wagons for removal during the very early 1970s although a few lengths were retained for reversing EMUs coming off the 'Welwyn flyover' and then underneath the Twentieth Mile overbridge and for a short distance southwards ending in a set of buffer stops which is probably still the case to this day although the short remaining lengths of the reversing siding were renewed and re-ballasted back in the middle 1970s (and probably since) when the 'Welwyn flyover' was opened for traffic in 1974.
With regards to the Down goods line there never was one although I presume you maybe referring to the Hatfield-WGC-Luton bi-directional single line that ran parallel to and along side the down slow line between Hatfield & WGC.
I was a telegraph lad at WGC box between 1972-1974.
With regards to the Down goods line there never was one although I presume you maybe referring to the Hatfield-WGC-Luton bi-directional single line that ran parallel to and along side the down slow line between Hatfield & WGC.
I was a telegraph lad at WGC box between 1972-1974.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
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DonAnderson
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Re: Goods Lines
There is no straight simple answer to this question.
I think Western 91 means the Luton single line on the down side. There was no down goods there. On the up side the Hertford branch between Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield was converted to an up goods following closure of that section of the branch to passenger traffic in 1944.
The beginning of the end occurred when Bridge 62 (Wrestler’s) collapsed on Sunday, 20th February 1966. See Report:
https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docum ... 1966-2.pdf
Following the collapse, these WON extracts should cover the abolition of these lines. Track lifting was a gradual, long-drawn-out process:
(10N/1966 05/03-11/03/1966)
*UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE-BETWEEN HATFIELD AND WELWYN GARDEN CITY
In connection with the demolition of Bridge No. 62, the following alterations have been made:-
A temporary buffer stop has been erected on the Luton single line adjacent to Hatfield No. 3 Starting Signal for this line. The portion of line between Hatfield and the temporary buffer stops will be used as a siding.
The Up Goods line between Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield has been taken out of use and a temporary buffer stop has been erected on this line adjacent to Sherrifs (Mount Pleasant) siding ground frame approximately 10 yards Welwyn Garden City side of temporary Bridge No. 62.
The portion of the Up Goods line between Welwyn Garden City and the temporary buffer stops will be used as a siding.
Traffic for Sherrifs Siding will be worked from Welwyn Garden City and each movement will be accompanied by an Inspector.
The signal arms have been removed from the following running signals at Welwyn Garden City:-
Back Platform Home to Up Goods.
Up Reception to Up Goods.
Up Sidings to Up Goods.
The calling on arms below these signals will be used to allow access to the Siding (former Up Goods line).
The “Limit of Shunt” board, situated on the cess side of the Up Goods line, Welwyn side of Sherrifs Siding ground frame, has been removed. ,MO/S/50472 (UFN)
This Notice was repeated as necessary, sometimes with slightly different wording. Then:
(21N/1966)
*SUNDAY 22nd MAY 1966 BETWEEN HATFIELD NO. 3 AND WELWYN GARDEN CITY
With the exception of the Up distant signal from Blackbridge the Luton Platform Up starting signal and the notice board fitted to the post of the Luton Platform Down starting signal, all Luton branch line signalling will be abolished.
The Luton Branch line between Hatfield No. 3 Down branch starting signal (buffer stops at Bridge No. 62) and the London end of Welwyn Garden City Station will be permanently out of use.
The points leading from the Luton Branch line to the Hatfield end of the Goods Loop at Welwyn Garden City will be abolished, those at the Blackbridge end being temporarily secured out of use.
The remainder of the Luton line will be renamed Blackbridge line.
A new facing connection from the Down Slow line leading into the Blackbridge line at the Hatfield end of Welwyn Garden City station will be brought into use.
A new left hand bracket signal will be fitted to the Down Slow Second Home signal post and will be brought into use with the arm at 25 feet above rail level, applying Down Slow to Blackbridge line.
A new limit of Shunt board will be brought into use on the cess side of the Down Slow line immediately on the Signal Box side of the Down Slow First Home signal. There will be standage for 50 Wagons, Engine and Brake between the Limit of Shunt Board and the Down Slow Second Home signals.
The former Luton Platform Up Starting signal will become the Blackbridge line up Home signal. A new disc signal will be fitted to the main post and will apply Blackbridge line to Down Slow line Limit of Shunt. MO/S/50472 (1)
(3N/1967)
*SUNDAY, 15th JANUARY 1967-HATFIELD
STAGE THREE
All Up Goods running signals will be abolished.
The facing connection from Up Goods to Up Slow line on the Welwyn Garden City side of the signal box will be disconnected and permanently secured out of use pending removal and the adjacent disc signals applying Up Slow to Up Goods and set back along Up Goods will be abolished.
The facing and trailing connections from the Up Goods to the Up Sidings will be converted to hand lever operation and the associated disc signals abolished.
The disc signal applying Up Fast to Down Slow or Down Fast will be repositioned between the Up Fast and Up Slow lines.
The Up Goods line will become part of the Up Siding and a new disc signal will be brought into use adjacent to the outlet points (ex Up Goods to Up Slow) and will apply Up Sidings to Up Slow.
MO/S/Pad. 605A (1)
(11N/1974 SPK)
TUESDAY 19 MARCH 1974 - WELWYN GARDEN CITY
A portion of the former Up Goods line South of the Up Goods Yard/Up Sidings will be retained as far as 19 miles 45 chains and buffer stops will be provided. This will form an extension to the Reversing line designated Reversing Siding and a new facing connection, Reversing line to Up Slow will be brought into use at 19 miles 60 chains. Trap points will be laid in the Reversing Siding protecting this connection.
All the new points will be motor operated and controlled from Welwyn Garden City signal box.
New signals will be brought into use as follows:-
WC598 - a three aspect ground mounted colour light signal with a left-hand offset subsidiary signal to the left of the Reversing line at 19 miles 62 chains applying:-
Reversing line to Up Slow (M).
Reversing line to Reversing Siding (S).
WC165 - A ground position light subsidiary signal located to the right of the Reversing Siding at 19 miles 57 chains south of the trap points applying:-
Reversing Siding to Reversing line WC169 signal. (14)
I think Western 91 means the Luton single line on the down side. There was no down goods there. On the up side the Hertford branch between Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield was converted to an up goods following closure of that section of the branch to passenger traffic in 1944.
The beginning of the end occurred when Bridge 62 (Wrestler’s) collapsed on Sunday, 20th February 1966. See Report:
https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docum ... 1966-2.pdf
Following the collapse, these WON extracts should cover the abolition of these lines. Track lifting was a gradual, long-drawn-out process:
(10N/1966 05/03-11/03/1966)
*UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE-BETWEEN HATFIELD AND WELWYN GARDEN CITY
In connection with the demolition of Bridge No. 62, the following alterations have been made:-
A temporary buffer stop has been erected on the Luton single line adjacent to Hatfield No. 3 Starting Signal for this line. The portion of line between Hatfield and the temporary buffer stops will be used as a siding.
The Up Goods line between Welwyn Garden City and Hatfield has been taken out of use and a temporary buffer stop has been erected on this line adjacent to Sherrifs (Mount Pleasant) siding ground frame approximately 10 yards Welwyn Garden City side of temporary Bridge No. 62.
The portion of the Up Goods line between Welwyn Garden City and the temporary buffer stops will be used as a siding.
Traffic for Sherrifs Siding will be worked from Welwyn Garden City and each movement will be accompanied by an Inspector.
The signal arms have been removed from the following running signals at Welwyn Garden City:-
Back Platform Home to Up Goods.
Up Reception to Up Goods.
Up Sidings to Up Goods.
The calling on arms below these signals will be used to allow access to the Siding (former Up Goods line).
The “Limit of Shunt” board, situated on the cess side of the Up Goods line, Welwyn side of Sherrifs Siding ground frame, has been removed. ,MO/S/50472 (UFN)
This Notice was repeated as necessary, sometimes with slightly different wording. Then:
(21N/1966)
*SUNDAY 22nd MAY 1966 BETWEEN HATFIELD NO. 3 AND WELWYN GARDEN CITY
With the exception of the Up distant signal from Blackbridge the Luton Platform Up starting signal and the notice board fitted to the post of the Luton Platform Down starting signal, all Luton branch line signalling will be abolished.
The Luton Branch line between Hatfield No. 3 Down branch starting signal (buffer stops at Bridge No. 62) and the London end of Welwyn Garden City Station will be permanently out of use.
The points leading from the Luton Branch line to the Hatfield end of the Goods Loop at Welwyn Garden City will be abolished, those at the Blackbridge end being temporarily secured out of use.
The remainder of the Luton line will be renamed Blackbridge line.
A new facing connection from the Down Slow line leading into the Blackbridge line at the Hatfield end of Welwyn Garden City station will be brought into use.
A new left hand bracket signal will be fitted to the Down Slow Second Home signal post and will be brought into use with the arm at 25 feet above rail level, applying Down Slow to Blackbridge line.
A new limit of Shunt board will be brought into use on the cess side of the Down Slow line immediately on the Signal Box side of the Down Slow First Home signal. There will be standage for 50 Wagons, Engine and Brake between the Limit of Shunt Board and the Down Slow Second Home signals.
The former Luton Platform Up Starting signal will become the Blackbridge line up Home signal. A new disc signal will be fitted to the main post and will apply Blackbridge line to Down Slow line Limit of Shunt. MO/S/50472 (1)
(3N/1967)
*SUNDAY, 15th JANUARY 1967-HATFIELD
STAGE THREE
All Up Goods running signals will be abolished.
The facing connection from Up Goods to Up Slow line on the Welwyn Garden City side of the signal box will be disconnected and permanently secured out of use pending removal and the adjacent disc signals applying Up Slow to Up Goods and set back along Up Goods will be abolished.
The facing and trailing connections from the Up Goods to the Up Sidings will be converted to hand lever operation and the associated disc signals abolished.
The disc signal applying Up Fast to Down Slow or Down Fast will be repositioned between the Up Fast and Up Slow lines.
The Up Goods line will become part of the Up Siding and a new disc signal will be brought into use adjacent to the outlet points (ex Up Goods to Up Slow) and will apply Up Sidings to Up Slow.
MO/S/Pad. 605A (1)
(11N/1974 SPK)
TUESDAY 19 MARCH 1974 - WELWYN GARDEN CITY
A portion of the former Up Goods line South of the Up Goods Yard/Up Sidings will be retained as far as 19 miles 45 chains and buffer stops will be provided. This will form an extension to the Reversing line designated Reversing Siding and a new facing connection, Reversing line to Up Slow will be brought into use at 19 miles 60 chains. Trap points will be laid in the Reversing Siding protecting this connection.
All the new points will be motor operated and controlled from Welwyn Garden City signal box.
New signals will be brought into use as follows:-
WC598 - a three aspect ground mounted colour light signal with a left-hand offset subsidiary signal to the left of the Reversing line at 19 miles 62 chains applying:-
Reversing line to Up Slow (M).
Reversing line to Reversing Siding (S).
WC165 - A ground position light subsidiary signal located to the right of the Reversing Siding at 19 miles 57 chains south of the trap points applying:-
Reversing Siding to Reversing line WC169 signal. (14)
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StevieG
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Re: Goods Lines
The Hatfield - Hertford single Line section between Hatfield and Welwyn Garden City was converted to be a Permissive Up Goods Line around 1940-42 Mickey, with the Hertford branch passenger service curtailed to run only between WGC & Hert.Mickey wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 11:32 am "With regards to the Up goods line between WGC (box) & Hatfield No.2 (box) that line was originally the Hatfield-WGC-Hertford bi-directional single line although after the passenger service finished between Hatfield-WGC-Hertford during the early 1950s it was converted into the Up goods line between WGC (box) & Hatfield No.2 (box) .... "
By 1968/9, following the Wrestlers bridge 'collapse' I recall that in WGC box, the southernmost end of the Up yard was all still available on the box diagram, but with the former 56 and 52 motor points connecting it to the former Up Reception and Up Goods converted to handpoints, and the ex-Goods road running all the way through to a buffer stop where the bridge had collapsed, as a long siding from WGC, with a couple of other sidings still shown to connect with it including a Smart's(?) sdg., and a Sherriff's not far from the buffer stop, but I'm not sure if any of it saw much, if any, use by then.
Sorry I don't know when the 'long siding' was lifted.
the Hatfield-WGC-Luton line track between Hatfield (Wrestlers bridge) and just short of WGC station had gone by 1968, with the section through WGC station Back Platform and on round westwards towards Ayot etc. still then in use, accessed by the new No.6 motor points Down Slow --> Back Platform put in. (Prior to the Wrestlers bridge 'collapse', there'd been no track connection at WGC between the Back Platform/Luton Line and the rest of the railway there.)
BZOH
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Re: Goods Lines
Yeah I always thought that was funny about levers nos 51-59 in the Welwyn Garden City frame Stevie being by the time I went to the box in July 1972 (and obviously for a number of years prior to myself showing up at the box) all those levers being basically all non-working and redundant levers but nobody in the S&T department had bothered painting those levers (nos 51-59) 'white' as spares anyway I shall post what those lever numbers worked.
From memory after the partial collapse of the Wrestlers bridge 'cutting the Up goods line in two' a temporary footbridge was erected (which was still in use in 1975) with one of the up right pillars (made of iron) being placed in the track bed of the former Up goods line so that put a permanent end to the Up goods line.
From memory after the partial collapse of the Wrestlers bridge 'cutting the Up goods line in two' a temporary footbridge was erected (which was still in use in 1975) with one of the up right pillars (made of iron) being placed in the track bed of the former Up goods line so that put a permanent end to the Up goods line.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
Re: Goods Lines
From a S&T diagram dated November 16th 1960 signalling alterations at the south end of the WGC Up yard and the addition of x4 new sidings.
Levers nos. 51 to 59 in Welwyn Garden City s/box.
Lever no.51 Ground disc signal Up goods to Up reception line & Up yard via no.52 points
Lever no.52 Motor operated points Up goods to Up yard
Lever no.53 Ground disc signal Up reception line & Up yard to shunting neck NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.54 Signal arm Up reception & Up yard to Up goods line NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.55 Miniature 'Calling On' arm underneath no.54 NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.56 Motor operated points Up reception line from Up yard
Lever no.57 Ground disc signal Up yard to shunting neck ABOLISHED
Lever no.58 Signal arm Up yard to Up goods line ABOLISHED
Lever no.59 Miniature 'Calling On' arm underneath no.58 Up yard to Up goods line ABOLISHED
Levers no.51 to no.59 were all redundant levers when I first went to WGC box in July 1972 as a telegraph lad and were never repainted as spare levers even after all the levers between no.51 to no.59 were all disconnected and abolished as working levers. The 'top end' of the Up yard as it was called by the local railway staff had all the remaining points at the south end of the Up yard being operated as 'hand worked' points after 1966.
The 'new signals' didn't last to long either from late 1960 until the partial collapse of Wrestlers bridge north of Hatfield station in 1966 permanently 'blocking the Up goods line' between WGC & Hatfield No.2 box.
Levers nos. 51 to 59 in Welwyn Garden City s/box.
Lever no.51 Ground disc signal Up goods to Up reception line & Up yard via no.52 points
Lever no.52 Motor operated points Up goods to Up yard
Lever no.53 Ground disc signal Up reception line & Up yard to shunting neck NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.54 Signal arm Up reception & Up yard to Up goods line NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.55 Miniature 'Calling On' arm underneath no.54 NEW (re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)
Lever no.56 Motor operated points Up reception line from Up yard
Lever no.57 Ground disc signal Up yard to shunting neck ABOLISHED
Lever no.58 Signal arm Up yard to Up goods line ABOLISHED
Lever no.59 Miniature 'Calling On' arm underneath no.58 Up yard to Up goods line ABOLISHED
Levers no.51 to no.59 were all redundant levers when I first went to WGC box in July 1972 as a telegraph lad and were never repainted as spare levers even after all the levers between no.51 to no.59 were all disconnected and abolished as working levers. The 'top end' of the Up yard as it was called by the local railway staff had all the remaining points at the south end of the Up yard being operated as 'hand worked' points after 1966.
The 'new signals' didn't last to long either from late 1960 until the partial collapse of Wrestlers bridge north of Hatfield station in 1966 permanently 'blocking the Up goods line' between WGC & Hatfield No.2 box.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
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StevieG
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Goods Lines
That's interesting Mickey. Never heard of those 1960 changes, though I've no reason to query that they didn't happen.
A bit odd that 53/54/55 are described as "(re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)".
Unless the yard sidings were shortened and the Yard to Reception points also roughly "(re-sited 42ft nearer WGC station)", it would make sense if the 'NEW' 53/4/5 were to be re-sited "further away from WGC station" - ( alternatively, "re-sited 42ft nearer to Hatfield").
Also 56 points are mentioned, but not what was changing with them (presumably conversion to handpoints).
BZOH
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StevieG
- LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
- Posts: 2353
- Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:08 pm
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Re: Goods Lines
Sincere apologies DonAnderson for later posting, on Thu 08 Feb 2024, some details which you had already covered in your very informative long post of 12:15 Mon 05 Feb 2024 : -
I had read Mickey's post of the 05th, and decided to reply, but did not do so until going straight in to do that on the 8th, failing to notice that in the meantime, you had made your very detailed post.DonAnderson wrote: ↑Mon Feb 05, 2024 1:15 pm "There is no straight simple answer to this question. ...."
BZOH
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Re: Goods Lines
I was curious Stevie why that group of levers nos.51 to 59 were all still painted in there individual colours even though when I showed up at the box in July 1972 that group of levers were all disconnected and redundant levers from what I could tell and not shown on the 'Garden City' track diagram. Obviously lever no.52 & no.56 that both operated an individual set of motor points and had 'short handles' with a S&T man cutting them down to a smaller size using a hacksaw at some unknown date.
I can't post the S&T diagram concerned by myself that is dated November 16th 1960 but at some stage maybe I mite be able to post parts of it with some help because the diagram is quite long and it also shows the signals and points that are all numbered on the Up lines at the south end of WGC station except signals no.32 & no.46 both the Up fast and Up slow lines 'starting signals' respectively but all the other signals at the south end of the station are shown such as no.45 & no.39 just off the Up slow lines platform (no.45 along the Up slow line towards no.46 signal & no.39 Up slow to Up fast line towards no.32 signal) and also including various ground disc signals at the south end of the station and the signals and points coming out of no.4 platform 'the Hertford platform' and the various routes into the Up goods line and Up reception lines as well.
I can't post the S&T diagram concerned by myself that is dated November 16th 1960 but at some stage maybe I mite be able to post parts of it with some help because the diagram is quite long and it also shows the signals and points that are all numbered on the Up lines at the south end of WGC station except signals no.32 & no.46 both the Up fast and Up slow lines 'starting signals' respectively but all the other signals at the south end of the station are shown such as no.45 & no.39 just off the Up slow lines platform (no.45 along the Up slow line towards no.46 signal & no.39 Up slow to Up fast line towards no.32 signal) and also including various ground disc signals at the south end of the station and the signals and points coming out of no.4 platform 'the Hertford platform' and the various routes into the Up goods line and Up reception lines as well.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
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western 91
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Re: Goods Lines
Thank you for all your replies.
Regards western 91.
Regards western 91.