The LNER Encyclopedia

Evening All

I have been given some new Gresley A4 photos mainly from the 1960’s including now preserved 60009 & 60019

Also included is this 1937 photo of
4484 Falcon at York in July 1937
http://tinyurl.com/qaoqsq4

60003 Andrew K McCosh Leeds Central
http://tinyurl.com/pvfhaqk

60009 Union of South Africa & a V2 at Ferryhill
http://tinyurl.com/od5hdtb
http://tinyurl.com/or6rps7

60019 Bittern Ferryhill MPD
http://tinyurl.com/oajw8h2

60019 Bittern at Gretna Junction
http://tinyurl.com/o5nk7wy

60019 Bittern Carlisle Canal
http://tinyurl.com/pfglpse

60032 Gannet Leeds Central
http://tinyurl.com/oz5hqac

Neil

neildimmer wrote:60019 Bittern at Gretna Junction
http://tinyurl.com/o5nk7wy

Is that really Gretna Junction? And what is going on?

John

I would think on the Dumfries line.

52A wrote:I would think on the Dumfries line.

I'm not sure. The train is traversing a crossover. There was one to the south of the station and one at the north end of the station but south of the junction. If the train was traversing the latter (could only be for single-line working) then the junction would be in the background (if not visible there would still be a point-rodding run beyond the crossover for it). The train is on a slight curve which could represent the alignment of the main line but if so the Dumfries line would surely be visible curving left, not to mention the River Sark bridge in between the two.

I can't imagine what an A4 would be doing there anyway - it's ex-LMS territory. Noted that it is a special of some sort (1Z44).

John

A quick scan of SixBellsJunction 'The Railtour files' gives the details of 60010 on 1Z44 - it was on 16-7-67.

1H was 2E wrote:A quick scan of SixBellsJunction 'The Railtour files' gives the details of 60010 on 1Z44 - it was on 16-7-67.

Thanks. Well "spotted".

The text there confirms it would have run via Gretna Junction (but had no reason to shunt there) but it does mention the trip was plagued by engineering work delays yet only refers to "wrong-road running" from Beattock to Greskine which makes one of those the more likely location.

Yet to me it doesn't look like those locations either. I'm also interested from the operational point of view - in the normal course of Single Line Working a train wouldn't usually stop on the crossover for the pilotman to board or alight unless, perhaps, it was exactly opposite the signal box (which isn't the case given the rodding run). Nor should he be riding on the lead locomotive if there is a banker behind (as there was on that section). I guess this will just have to be put down as one of life's little mysteries.

John

Everything's recorded - it's just finding it. Because it was an RCTS tour there was a report in the RO, Oct '67. The relevant quotes are, in the down direction '.... a sedate progress was made to Kingmoor whence wrong line working was in operation to Gretna Junction' and on the return '... a deficit of only one minute passing Annan gave hopes of a RT arr at Carlisle. These proved to be pious ones which failed to take account of the regional boundary at Gretna Jct. It is a melancholy fact that throughout the planning and execution of this tour the LMR were as difficult as the ScR was helpful. We stood thirteen minutes at Gretna Junction on the return, awaiting a path over the up goods line to Carlisle, and when the pilotman did appear we departed with his blessing but without his actual presence on the footplate - as far as the starting signal which showed an obstinate red and eventually had to be passed at danger.' Sounds like a typical late '60s railtour.....

1H was 2E wrote:Everything's recorded - it's just finding it. Because it was an RCTS tour there was a report in the RO, Oct '67. The relevant quotes are, in the down direction '.... a sedate progress was made to Kingmoor whence wrong line working was in operation to Gretna Junction' and on the return '... a deficit of only one minute passing Annan gave hopes of a RT arr at Carlisle. These proved to be pious ones which failed to take account of the regional boundary at Gretna Jct. It is a melancholy fact that throughout the planning and execution of this tour the LMR were as difficult as the ScR was helpful. We stood thirteen minutes at Gretna Junction on the return, awaiting a path over the up goods line to Carlisle, and when the pilotman did appear we departed with his blessing but without his actual presence on the footplate - as far as the starting signal which showed an obstinate red and eventually had to be passed at danger.' Sounds like a typical late '60s railtour.....

Thank you for that - that adds some very interesting info.

Casting aside the pathetic enthusiast-speak* in that report it gives us new locations to consider for the photograph although I admit that I am still struggling to get an angle on that view in relation to the text.

Obviously there are two crossovers involved with single-line working - that at the Kingmoor end can be ruled out by the presence of a mechanical shunt signal (colour-light signalling came there c1963) so the finger certainly points at Gretna Junction. For the above description it should be using the south crossover, although there is little evidence of the Longtown Branch which would be on the left (grassed-over area?) nor the Down Refuge Siding on the right (probably also removed by then).

On the return run the train would not have had to cross, although the pilotman would be right to remain after authorising the train if there was another one to follow. There is no Goods Line from Gretna Junction, though, so I do wonder whether the above report is totally accurate with its locations.

But for now, despite many remaining questions, I'll go with that view being at the South end of Gretna Junction with the train facing north. Many thanks to everybody for their input.

John

* - I can't see the train in front, so there isn't one and the railway is delaying my train for the fun of it

Have only looked at a few Neil, resulting from the 'Gretna' conversations, but "60021 British Rail Images - Various Locations - 1962 Onwards" ("1 of 3" ; "6 of 42"), on a 4-track section's left-hand curve, is on the Down Fast at Ganwick, between Hadley Wood North and Potters Bar Tunnels, by chance just opposite to where the old signal box once was.