The LNER Encyclopedia

Hi Guys

With all the talk on another thread about pre-grouping carriages, I thought you might like to see the attached postcard I got off of Ebay.

The description said that it was of an N2 with 2 quad-arts, but as you can see there are more than 8 carriages. So, could it be an N2 with 2 quint-arts, or even 3 quad-arts, on a local to New Barnet. On the back of the postcard is the date 1921 with some other details that are hand written in pencil and are hard to read.

Best regards

Richard

I hardly like to comment on carriages as I'm not far off being dunce in that department, but I can see that those in the front part, and as far back as I can make out, are 4-wheelers. Were quint-arts formed of such vehicles?

But the train's location is 100% certainly on the Down Fast line just north of New Southgate station, with the Friern Barnet Road overbridge prominent and the old No.3 signal box (abolished post-grouping in the 1920s/'30s) up in one of its arches, (the No.2 box is also up in another arch amidst the gloom above the second carriage), and top left is the building which housed a public house referred to in the '60s as 'the Turrets'.

Was it a Sunday?.

Giving a local stopping train a run down the fast line or was that normal practice?.

New Southgate DOWN & UP s/boxes are to be seen in the 'bridge hole' (i believe they were no.2 up & no.3 down s/boxes?) and no.1 box being at the south end of the station between the up fast & up slow lines.

That local must have been 'turned out' fast line at Wood Green Tunnel box i presume?.

I cannot be sure, but certainly the front carriage does not have a bogie at its leading edge, so I think they are ordinary
6 wheelers. You can see the front axle if you blow the picture up a bit.

From my research, and looking at what I believe to be the middle axle, I am pretty sure they are not 4 wheelers.

Paul

All the leading carriages are four wheelers. The GNR operated them in close-coupled 'suburban' sets, with First, Second, Third and a few Composite class types. The body and compartment lengths varied. The least generous Thirds being 5' 1 1/2" wide. They were replaced by articulated sets built in the later GN and early LNER period.

John

The place and approximate date are quite correct. The stock is made up of close coupled 4 wheelers of the type which preceded the twins and eventually the quad arts. The photo is from the Loco Pub Co collection and might have been taken by W J Reynolds. I have no idea what the working is but suggest that being on the Main and of that type of remi redundant stock it might have been an excursion.

This 4 wheeled stock was built in the early years of the 29th century and replace by the quad arts stating around 1920. Since the loco is in GNR green livery this looks like a normal suburban train for the period.

A number of these carriages were rebuilt as brake vans in the late 20s.

Hi Guys

Thanks for the information and for giving me the correct details of the carriages.

Regards

Richard

As far as my research shows, the last 4 wheel carriage sets were the recessed door ones, but built in 1899, these were somewhat earlier, I think between 1885 and 1895. They were ordered in 12 coach sets, with 1st/2nd and 3rd coaches as well as composites and 2nd/3rd brakes too. Stirling did not like the short buffered sets, on the very Scottish basis, that if one coach, particularly the end one, had problems, it put a complete set out of use. What he would have made of artics, is an interesting question.
Much is made by commentators of the narrowness of the compartments, but I wonder how many of you have measured the seat space in a Ryanair jet these days The important thing to remember though is that these sets were generally meant for the London Suburban services, and the Met line stations were quite short, so to get the most passengers in the carriages had to be short too. It is also why the GNR preferred the 0-6-2t later for London services. The 0-8-2t although more powerful, meant shorter trains for the same stations, interesting conundrum. When people complain about the size of compartment on GNR stock, they rarely mention the GER stuff going into Liverpool Street, which also crammed people thing.
Still be thankful not to be in Tokyo
Mind you, I still think the first two carriages have 5 axles between them It is one of the major difficulties for those looking for carriage details with a front 3/4 shot, to accurately place the axles.

Paul

john coffin wrote:Mind you, I still think the first two carriages have 5 axles between them It is one of the major difficulties for those looking for carriage details with a front 3/4 shot, to accurately place the axles.

Paul

No. There is no difficulty if one just looks at the photograph. Just look at the lower footboards and the spaces for the axleboxes, and then compare to a 6-wheeler.


So many people interpret photos by seeing what they want to see or know. And therefore discount what they are actually looking at.

I would recommend a copy of the Great Northern Railway Society Archive Diagram Book disc.

John

Jas, you are of course right, it just takes time to make sure .
since this loco was into traffic in march 1921, it gives one some idea of the timescale.
If you look through the right hand arch it looks as if the signal box is built into it. Anyone know of any pictures from the other view, that looks to be a really interesting signal box location.

Although as I said before Stirling did not like the short buffer carriages, they had been built as far back as 1873-5, so obviously traffic had more control over some things than the Loco Engineer.

Paul