The LNER Encyclopedia

A friend of a friend is looking for information about this photograph. The first question is pre-war or post-war? "Flying Scotsman" was renumbered from 4472 in January 1946, so that would narrow it down to a very few months if it was post-war. I don't think fashions changed much while the war was on, so I'm inclined to think it is pre-war, but probably not by much. I'll go for the mid- to late-thirties. There was an LNER exhibition at Walthamstow in 1937, but my money is on the Norwich Thorpe exhibition of May 1939. It was captured on film, and although I didn't spot 4472, the film shows the mode of transport in the foreground (4m 40s) together with many interesting "Health & Safety" horrors!
http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/906

Someone else has suggested it is post-war because the loco in the back ground looks very much like an A1/A2. His reasoning is:

"If so, it must be after the war 1945/46 as the A1s were built in 1945 and the A2s between 1943 and 1946. 4472 was renumbered in 1946 to 103 and repainted Green from War time black. The lining on the tender doesn't mach up with the 1923 1941 LNER apple green. It is difficult to tell from the signals - they are certainly not GN but could be modified NE slotted signals. The Lister truck was a popular works vehicle at the time and is numbered 16 so the location must have had a few of them. I am going to plumb for York, 1946."

Over to you!

Incidentally, I have updated the "Mystery Photos" on the Kestrel Railway Books website:
http://www.kestrelrailwaybooks.co.uk

Cheers, Howard.

Those who know may be able to pin it down further by the tender FS is towing.

Is that an A1/2 or a V2 in the background?

I discounted the loco in the background as being a V2 as I don't know of any being coupled to 8 wheel tenders, as that is the tender in the photo.

That looks like it is P2 Cock of the North. I have a feeling this is a photograph of the same open day 4472 and 2001 attended in the late 30s. Not sure about that though. The big question is the V shaped cab.

I believe that you can totally rule out post-war because Flying Scotsman did not regain LNER green until it was rebuilt as an A3 in January 1947.

Therefore it must be pre-April 1943 which was when it was painted black.

The tender looks like a corridor or streamlined tender placing the photo between April 1928 and October 1936 or between July 1938 and April 1943.

Turning to the loco with the v-fronted cab, I agree a V2 is unlikely, so it must be a P2. 2001 was completed in May 1934, 2002 in October 1934, 2003-6 in 1936.

The best I can do therefore is narrow it down to May 1934 to October 1936 or July 1938 to April 1943, though 1940 - 43 is probably extremely unlikely due to wartime austerity. That does therefore rule out Walthamstow in 1937.

The Norwich film has some great footage including a nice sequence of streamlined B17/5 2859 East Anglian near the end.

Thanks for posting!

So far so good - my Norwich 1939 is still looking hopeful then. I can't help thinking it has that immediate pre-war "age of innocence" feel about it... the calm before the storm...

Howard.

Does FS have the raised superheater cover? If not, does Yeadon mention when it got it?

jwealleans wrote:Does FS have the raised superheater cover? If not, does Yeadon mention when it got it?

Per RCTS 2A, 4472 did not get superheater covers until rebuilt as an A3 in Jan 1947. It was not even 4472 then come to think of it!

Another suggestion:

<quote>
Ilford in June 1934. There is a picture in "Flying Scotsman" 2nd Ed Ian Allan from the front view which shows that the loco behind was "Cock o' the North".
</quote>

Thoughts?

2002EarlMarischal wrote:The best I can do therefore is narrow it down to May 1934 to October 1936 or July 1938 to April 1943, though 1940 - 43

Can't be before 1937 or after 1941/2 - there's 4489 in one or two shots with full streamlining in garter blue.

Sorry if my dates are a bit out, I don't have the RCTS or yeadons books, so my dates are always estimates.

Howard wrote:Another suggestion:

<quote>
Ilford in June 1934. There is a picture in "Flying Scotsman" 2nd Ed Ian Allan from the front view which shows that the loco behind was "Cock o' the North".
</quote>

Thoughts?

Howard, brilliant - that's the exact photograph I was thinking of when I stated earlier I thought it was 2001, just couldn't remember where I'd seen it!

I think it's pretty much a dead cert to be an alternative view of that event.

A few very telling shots here, gents:

http://www.superstock.com/stock-photography/Ilford

Video and photo must be from separate events then, becuase at 1:10 in the video, it is clearly 4489 in the full 'coronation' livery

There is a clue from the rollling stock.... the Buffet carriage is D167, no. 649 (I believe) and that carriage is circa 1937.

regards, Graham

> Can't be before 1937 or after 1941/2 - there's 4489 in one or two shots with full streamlining in garter blue.

Cross purposes - the original photo I posted is only one shot - I think you're talking about the Norwich Thorpe film over which I don't think there is any doubt.

> Video and photo must be from separate events then, becuase at 1:10 in the video, it is clearly 4489 in the full 'coronation' livery

Again, I think you're talking about the Norwich video, which I'm not interested in.

Going back to my original question, the Ilford photos do lend weight to my original photo being from there... thank you!

Howard.