The LNER Encyclopedia

Seeing the reference to the Cliffe-Uddingston cement traffic in the 'Oops!!' thread I thought these three photos of it at Grantham may be of interest. The dates are:

92191: late June/early July 1962
tail end shot of up empties: 3/10/1963
D6558: Aug/Sept 1965

This was always a bit of a highlight of my afternoons at Grantham, as it brought a type of diesel loco through which I never saw otherwise.

Another query though - D6558 bears the headcode 4A, yet the train was headed for the Southern Region so I'd have thought 4O would have been a more appropriate designation? (It's referred to by Stembok as 4S37 in the down direction, headed for the ScR) Can anyone comment on this please?

There's more info on cement wagons in general, and this Cemflo type in particular - including the fatal July 1967 accident in which DP2 was involved - at:

http://glostransporthistory.visit-glouc ... cement.htm

and

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c125914.html

The Reporting Number of the Uddingston -Cliffe cement empties was 4O92 - a Class 4 train bound for the Southern Region - in the 1962/63 period, when I used to see it fairly frequently. I am not sure whether any change occurred later as you say that the photograph was taken in 1965,but 4A seems very abbreviated or a mistake! Another interesting point is that D6558 does not have a yellow front warning panel, which also seems late for 1965, though perhaps not unknown. Prior to the introduction of the BRCW Type 3s to York on this train the train was headed by a 9F, so I wonder if the picture of 92191 shows it deputising for an SR Type 3.
61070: PS Just realised looking at the photo of D6558 again that it would probably be unable to display the correct Reporting Number, not having the standard train describer panel. This train was originally hauled by two BRCW Type 3s from Kent to York and it then became a single loco. At one time the down train - 4S37 - was booked to reach York at 10.40 am though being a freight this could vary somewhat. This inter-regional working created quite a lot of interest when first introduced. At York a 50A EE4 usually took over the working to destination.

More cement, 60026 Stonehaven 6/1965.

Thanks for adding your photo too 52A. Obviously cement isn't that fussy about what gets it to its destination, from 9F to Type 3 to 8P! Has anyone got any more?

The coal working from Shilbottle colliery to Oxwellmains cement works at Dunbar used to produce some odd steam choices of motive power during the rundown of steam in the North East. When travelling to Newcastle from Alnwick on the 0732 we always looked out of the window at Alnmouth down loop where the train would be inside. It was the last regular steam working over the border and i had several suprises on the motive power ranging from A2s to the good old J27s and everything inbetween including midland locos.

Here is a picture of a class 40 on this train:
http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/ ... p?id=23578

and there is a picture from 1968 of D1102 on 4S37 at Doncaster in Barking Bill's collection on Flickr.

4A is a Southern Region headcode which indicates the route only. My 1961 book lists this as Bricklayers' Arms and Ramsgate, via Swanley and Chatham. There's nothing more specific for Cliffe, so 4A sounds about right to me.

Just need a decent kit for the Cemflo

Simon.

52A wrote:More cement, 60026 Stonehaven 6/1965.

Can anyone shed some light on the odd wagon half way down the train in 52A's photo???

Not a wagon expert and reaching back to dim memories, were there some covered wagons for the conveyance of bagged cement?

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c125427.html

Yes here we are, memory not as dim as I thought!

simonh wrote:4A is a Southern Region headcode which indicates the route only. My 1961 book lists this as Bricklayers' Arms and Ramsgate, via Swanley and Chatham. There's nothing more specific for Cliffe, so 4A sounds about right to me.

Thanks for that information on the headcode, Simon. I'll add it to the database of info about my father's photographs.

4A seems to have continued as the headcode for many years. I have notes which indicate this between 1966 and late 1968, although a couple of times I have written A4 for the headcode.

The train was routed via the GN&GE at times, which caused much excitement for us spotters between Spalding and Sleaford.

I presume this service reached the ECML via Lewisham, Brixton, under Clapham Junc, Willesden High level, Gospel Oak and Harringey?

I remember often seeing the down working pausing in Ferme Park Down yard for a few minutes in the late 1960s, having arrived via the Harringay Curve up from from Harringay Park Jn. on 'the T&H' line ; presumably to change crews.

Class 4 fully fitted freight
letter A ECML
the Cromptons didn't have the facility to display the full headcode but the train displaying 4A wasn't displaying a SR destination code the national or standard code applying in this case. if it had been headlamp days then the normal "middle and right" would have been displayed in both directions. Thr letter S ofcourse was for trains to the Southern as mention earlier hence 4S.
The Southern local headcodes did have lamps for working onto other regions but my works copies are in pandoras box or placed in that place called "somewhere safe".
Incidently the Cromptons gave a good ride and like a 350HP DES you could drive them from either side.
Jim Brodie.potential white line painter on left side platforms.

I have set out a fuller set of reports from Railway Observers below, and have deleted this to prevent repetition.

John

James Brodie ; on Sun May 23, 2010 wrote:Class 4 fully fitted freight
letter A ECML
the Cromptons didn't have the facility to display the full headcode but the train displaying 4A wasn't displaying a SR destination code the national or standard code applying in this case. if it had been headlamp days then the normal "middle and right" would have been displayed in both directions. Thr letter S ofcourse was for trains to the Southern as mention earlier hence 4S.
The Southern local headcodes did have lamps for working onto other regions but my works copies are in pandoras box or placed in that place called "somewhere safe".
Incidently the Cromptons gave a good ride and like a 350HP DES you could drive them from either side.
Jim Brodie.potential white line painter on left side platforms.

Jim,
Just happened to read through some of this thread again, and noticed something I obviously missed those several months ago.
Was 4S ever really applicable to trains to the Southern ?

From my first starting to absorb the meaning of the 4-character system's letters in the mid-60s, then and in the following thirty years AFAIR, and as referred to earlier in this thread, S had been inter-regional trains destined for the Scottish Region, and O for destination Southern ; the others being E-Eastern, M-London Midland, N-North Eastern (while it lasted as an entity), and V-Western (the only other 'non-literal' one) :
Later supplemented only by L-Anglia Region on its creation in 1987, these tend to continue even now, although, with several instances through to nowadays of the former Regions having been significantly changed, divided, part-merged and renamed over the years, their use might best be described as for (but not exclusively applied to all) for trains going from elsewhere to the former Regions, or areas in some way associated with them.
One exception is where a different letter is applied to frequent 'less-than-long distance'(?) trains traversing a route which was once inter-BR Regional, such as First Capital Connect's King's Cross / Kings Lynn services, which now use 'T' in both directions; a letter which I think BR(ER) only used to use rarely for special test trains (e.g., the Class 91 'Electra' locos' test runs which plied Stoke bank and beyond, using spare passenger stock as the Mk.IVs were yet to be delivered), but also, as in many non-ER areas of BR, for local non-passenger trip workings.