The LNER Encyclopedia

Here is an interesting photograph that I don't ever recall seeing before taken I presume around 1900 on a four track section somewhere on the GN main line although it may well be north of Potters Bar and the distant signals may belong to Hawkshead box?.

Note the bloke standing at the bottom of the signal post in the 6ft way along side the large boiler Ivatt Atlantic no.1402.


http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/3 ... 702989.jpg

Cracking photo, wherever it is.

Yes, it is a Down train north of Potters Bar, approaching Hawkshead bridge.

1402 wasn't built until 1905, so a little later than 1900.

John

JASd17 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:59 am Yes, it is a Down train north of Potters Bar, approaching Hawkshead bridge.

1402 wasn't built until 1905, so a little later than 1900.

Ok John so the date I presume is between 1905-1910 I would say?.

That bloke at the bottom of the signal post I am guessing was either a lampman oiling up the signal lamps or possibly he was a P.Way bloke?.

Also note what appears to be a fogsignalman's hut laying forward just before the signal post in the 6ft way.

The open area to the extreme left of the photograph in later years became Potters Bar golf course and from memory I remember hearing that Tony Jacklin British champion back in 1969 and through the 1970s use to play on that course.

The then new RCH lamp code and the inclusion of elliptical non corridor stock make me feel that this is about 1910.

The old boy at the foot of the post seems to be imbibing; possibly tea?

2512silverfox wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:21 am The then new RCH lamp code and the inclusion of elliptical non corridor stock make me feel that this is about 1910.

The old boy at the foot of the post seems to be imbibing; possibly tea?

Also it is a very good clear photograph so with the loco headlamps and elliptical non-corridor stock it probably dates from around 1910-1911?.

Yes I reckon you are correct 2512silverfox that old bloke wearing the bowler hat (a lot of workmen use to wear them at that time) does appear to be taking a sip or drink of something also there appears to be a some sort of metal container sitting on the ground next to him could that be full of signal oil?.

I'd say he was the lampman. There appears to be a GN lamp by his feet and none behind the down distant spectacle and i'm sure there should be in normal circumstances. The GN lamp case sat on a spike and was easily removable so it was probably easier to take the whole thing down rather than just the inners.

I reckon your correct in your assumption Richard that he is a lampman 'doing the weekly lamping duties' at Hawkshead.

Yes your correct the Down slow line distant signal doesn't appear to have a lamp behind the spectacle although the Down fast line distant signal does.

The old boy doesn't appear to be phased about standing pretty close to the Down fast line as a Down express thunders past while stopping for a quick cuppa!.

A good photograph all round...

Agreed, I can see no lamp on the Down Slow distant.

There would have been no Brookmans park station at this time. When did Hawkshead box close?

John

JASd17 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:29 pm Agreed, I can see no lamp on the Down Slow distant.

There would have been no Brookmans park station at this time. When did Hawkshead box close?

I have seen a date of the box closure on here before John but I can't remember it although reckon that John thesignalman would know the exact date but I am guessing it may have been sometime either during the 1920s or early 1930s?. I believe Hawkshead box was located along side the Down slow line in the area of the nearby overbridge.

The immediate area of Hawkshead (especially the Down side of the line) and the approaches to Brookmans Park station appeared to be a favourite spot for railway enthusiasts taking cine film from the line side during the late 1950s & 1960s into the early 1970s as I have seen quite a bit of amateur usually colour film footage of steam and diesel hauled trains from the line side in that area that has cropped up on several dvds in recent years.

The Transport Video Publishing dvd below features quite a few 'run bys' from the line side around the Hawkshead/Brookmans Park area during the late 1950s & 1960s and is actually a very good dvd If you like Eastern Region main line steam from that era.

https://www.transportvideo.com/power-of ... -547-p.asp

About half a mile to the extreme left, would that be what is now Lochinvar House School in Heath Road?

Kimball

kimballthurlow wrote: ↑Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:45 am About half a mile to the extreme left, would that be what is now Lochinvar House School in Heath Road?

Maybe Kimball but the area to the extreme left of the photograph in later years became Potters Bar golf course which as previously posted on this topic thread Tony Jacklin British golf champion in 1969 and during the 1970s allegedly practised on.

The Hawkshead 'Duty Stone' is a couple of hundred yards behind the photographer and to his left standing on top of the Up side embankment.

The GNR was renowned for it's 'long sweeping curves' and it's well laid P.Way which are well shown in the picture.

The GNR certainly liked many of there signal posts tall to show a sky background.

Afraid that I'm not convinced that this is between Potters Bar and Hawkshead Bridge as the land on the right adjacent to the railway would have to be somewhat higher than the railway to match. I'll grant that there is a dip along that stretch at one point at the end of what is now the Cranbourne Road Industrial estate. Doesn't look right for between HH Bridge and where Brookmans Park station is now, either. I used to live in BP and went to school in PB in the 1950s and must have gone along that line path 100s of times

On revision of the photograph you mite have a point in your assumption Eightpot because even though it looks similar to the area just to the north of Potters Bar around Hawkshead somehow it doesn't quite feel right(?) although the photograph it's self was found by myself in amongst a whole group of photographs supposedly taken around the Potters Bar area?. I was trying to think where else it could be at least on the 4 track section of the GN main line between Potters Bar & Hatfield and also between Woolmer Green & Sandy and couldn't?. The Hatfield-Welwyn Junction section at that time having 6 tracks including the Hertford and Luton line branches that both ran parallel with the fast & slow lines along that stretch of the main line. Other locations that I was trying to think of south of Greenwood to Wood Green and the more built up north London suburbs through New Barnet & New Southgate I assume can be ruled out and north of Sandy I would say that the only place that it mite possibly be at a outside chance was between Wood Walton & Connington with that right-hand curve in the northbound Down direction heading towards Connington although the undulating land to the right of the photograph from memory during the early 1970s was I believe more flatter so I go for it being between Potters Bar & Hawkshead still.

Hi Mickey. I've been giving considerable thought to this photo and am convinced it is not just north of Potters Bar. The ground adjacent to the line on the right just isn't high enough, and the white building on the extreme left would be right in the middle of the PB golf club ground. As the GC was formed around 1923 and only leased the land - certainly up to WW2 - I think they were hardly in a position to demolish the building. Also, expansion of both PB and Brookmans Park didn't really begin until the 1920s, I doubt that housing would have penetrated that far by circa 1910.

What I do find interesting is the structure in the RH foreground - could it be for the gates of a level crossing, and if so, where? One possibility that occurred to me (assuming it is a Down train) is that it could have been taken by Redhall signal box, the ground of the RH later occupied by Mowlems and now the Tesco warehouse site. The only thing that negates this idea is that the white house and Great North Road I would expect to be further away.

It doesn't really work for north of Hawkshead Bridge either, if it was I believe the bridge would have to be in view, also the siding on the Down side (assuming it was there in 1910. The signals (unless re-positioned) are too far away from the bridge too. There was a GN tall somersault signal (with a concrete post, if I recall correctly) for the Down Main situated adjacent to the PB end of the siding. This lasted into the early 1950s.

Technically the photo is interesting bearing in mind the equipment of the time. I suspect it was taken on a glass plate camera with a top to bottom focal plan shutter in the camera, hence the slight 'lean' of the smokebox on the Atlantic. Throw in slow emulsion speeds, limited aperture lenses, a swing front to get both front and back of the train in focus, railway photography then was definitely something of an art. Very different to today's aim and shoot photography!

Most of this assumes that it is a late afternoon/evening photo of a Down train, but could it be a morning one of an Up train which would give more possibilities elsewhere?