The LNER Encyclopedia

There aren't that many photographs that appear to have been taken at this location?.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... .KO1yi9FZy...

Mickey

A quiz Mickey ?
Presumably, like me, you know where it is ?

Well I guessed you would know where it is Stevie and probably a number of others will do also.

The railway in the photograph at this location has changed somewhat over the last 45 years especially since about late 1973 onwards to be more accurately.

Mickey

Its's quite an easy place to get to on a main road and all that.

Well I am going for a Down express at Woolmer Green.

John

Stevie, Richard & John yes you all know where it is and if Dave Cockle and giner had both been on the forum I presume they would have known as well.

Yes the photograph was taken just to the north of Woolmer Green (24 miles from Kings Cross) with the photographer positioned on the Up side of the railway embankment. The express is certainly a Down express hauled by one of Gresley's A3s possibly no.2561 Minoru(?). The four running lines are from the nearest the camera the Up Goods, Up Main, Down fast & Down slow lines also Woolmer Green box can just be seen in the far distance.

From October 1973 when both Woolmer Green & Knebworth s/boxes were closed the Up Goods line was then renamed the Up slow line and the junction points for both the Up & Down slow lines were repositioned from outside Woolmer Green box to just beyond were the loco is shown in the photograph with the area first being controlled by Welwyn Garden City box between October 1973 & September 1976 before Kings Cross PSB finally took over the area.

A personal memory was of actually visiting Woolmer Green box one sunny Saturday afternoon back in August 1970 by chance when I followed the path up from the country lane to the box and the signalman came out onto the box staircase landing and asked me would I nip to the local nearby shops in the village for him which I did. On returning to the box and from memory when entering the small box there was a overwhelming smell of floor polish on the shinny lino floor and brasso polish on the shinny lever handles and brass work on the block instruments on the block shelf. The signalman I later found out was one P.J.Cleverley who I believe was a Hitchin relief signalman who may have passed away sometime during the 1980s also P.J. I also later found out was on duty at Hatfield No.3 box during the early morning hours of March 1968 when a runaway loose coupled goods train failed to stop at Hatfield after being 'turned in' onto the Down Goods line at Hatfield No.1 box and then ran through Hatfield No.3s signals at the north end of Hatfield station and on into a dead end siding road colliding with a stop block and killing the driver and secondman.

Mickey

Hi Mickey,

I think the loco is Grantham based 2551, an A1 at this time - with short travel valves. Date wise it is between 1925 and 1929, but others may be able to refine that.

John

I dare say you are correct John with regards to the loco as locos aren't my strongest interest with railways I am more interested in railway signalling and railways in general.

Just an interesting little aside with regards to Woolmer Green box was until it's closure in October 1973 it was never connected to a mains water supply pipe so fresh drinking water was brought up once a week (usually on a Saturday morning) by a light engine from Hitchin and dropped off at the box in several water containers with the empty water containers being returned to Hitchin on the light engine.

Mickey

It is slightly strange that the Up Goods line isn't occupied with a waiting goods train although it didn't have to be but usually back in those days there was plenty of goods trains around so maybe the photograph was taken on a Sunday when I presume it was a bit quieter?.

Mickey

The photo appeared on Simons FLICKR site some time ago and received a number of comments, the date is thought to be earlier than 1925 as the loco is unnamed, the working is thought to be an east coast service with Steve Banks noting the triplet and the formation may be with the Aberdeen portion leading.

I hope this is of interest,
Steve

Apologies my reply was to the Woolmer Green A1 picture
Steve

Meanwhile back at Woolmer Green (by the way I have forgotten the box single needle telegraph code for the box?) It looks like the trees are in leaf so it mite possibly be around the summer of 1925 and possibly on a Sunday?.

If the loco is no.2551 as John thinks it maybe that loco entered traffic in November 1924 and if it's no.2561 that I thought the loco is that loco entered traffic in May 1925 according to a list of names & numbers of the A1/A3 locos on Wikipedia.

Although the overall photograph has a slightly earlier 'feel' to me possibly 1924?.

Mickey

Hi Gents,

I have just noticed the lack of a nameplate. It is therefore 1925.

Yes, the stock having a triplet at that date it will be a Scottish service, I shall give it some thought.

Mickey, in my observations of many photos, they never have a 'feel' just a considerable number of individual pointers as to where and when they might be. One just has to apply them all. With the Eric Treacy film photos I was able to work with, as opposed to the glass plates, I started to put the rolls of film back together, because back in the 1980s passenger loco information was more detailed than other types - and it still is. I wish to continue this at some point. It is my thought that many Eric Treacy shots could be now be placed within a year, which considering there is no dating information on most of them would be a considerable advance.

John

That sounds interesting John regarding the Eric Treacy photographs (The Railway Bishop) I once had one of his books of ex-LMS/BR steam era photographs all in b&w I believe many years ago back in the beginning of the 1970s.

Personally I would like to see some more photographs of the Woolmer Green area especially showing the box (if any exist?) because pictures of Woolmer Green box are super rare and over the last 50 years I believe I have only seen maybe one in the first LNER album although come to think of it now the photograph doesn't show the box it shows a N2 piloting a Down express just passing Woolmer Green's Down main line home signal along side the Down main to Down slow line home signal on the tall wooden bracket signal post (which leaned slightly towards the Down main line on the curve) and was located near to the box but overall photographs featuring Woolmer Green before October 1973 are extremely rare.

Mickey

Mickey,

I have to agree, not seeing something on the Up 'Goods' at that era is strange. Did they have to run all the way to Greenwood from here, depending on the date?

John