The LNER Encyclopedia

Was this ever a success after Thompson rebuilt it?

60113 Great Northern ex works at Doncaster plant
https://railway-photography.smugmug.com ... /i-qz7bkv5

Neil

Once again memory evoking photographs , 60113 appears to be outside the paint shop at the Plant and in light steam. Was this normal practice to steam an engine before it was released after a general repair? Am I also correct in thinking as a rule engines only received a full repaint after a full general repair ?

neildimmer wrote:Was this ever a success after Thompson rebuilt it?

60113 Great Northern ex works at Doncaster plant
https://railway-photography.smugmug.com ... /i-qz7bkv5

Neil

If you put aside the invective about the choice of this engine for rebuilding, the original A10s by the late forties were reported to be in need of attention to bring their performance and reliability into line with later built engines. Whether this could have been achieved simply converting them to A3s is a moot point.

neildimmer wrote:Was this ever a success after Thompson rebuilt it?

You need to define what a success is. If the rebuilt W1 was successful as a one off, then Great Northern would also qualify in that bracket and probably would be considered a superior machine, in some respects.

Certainly was she was potentially the equal of a Peppercorn A1 in terms of haulage, and she was more economical on fuel due to the A4 sized grate. If not as much loved as a one off, she was still a better engine than the A10s and single chimney A4s by some way, and one could argue rather well better than the A3s before they received their double chimneys.

Like all things, some balance of opinion is needed and 60113 probably ranks as Thompson's second best pacific design after the standard A2 (later A2/3). Given the high standards of Pacific design on the ECML, you could be forgiven for thinking that having the highest mileage of all the Thompson Pacifics (and a mileage greater than the majority of the Gresley A3s by comparison) might count for something, but all that is ever remembered are the now clearly ridiculous assertions that Thompson picked 4470 for rebuilding. Which not only isn't true, but to my astonishment was picked up on in a magazine over ten years ago as being a myth, and still the diatribe flows for that "fact".

If I may ask in this thread, is there any video recordings of A1/1 Great Northern in action, or any sound recordings of what her whistle and puffing sounded like?

When she was rebuilt, would she have most likely had a standard bell/"teapot" whistle like the A1's/A3's, or did she ever have a chime whistle?

TheSteamKing82 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:51 am If I may ask in this thread, is there any video recordings of A1/1 Great Northern in action, or any sound recordings of what her whistle and puffing sounded like?

When she was rebuilt, would she have most likely had a standard bell/"teapot" whistle like the A1's/A3's, or did she ever have a chime whistle?

Standard LNER whistle fitted throughout her career.

I recall reading that as 'rebuilt' the crews hated her due to the high cab that gave them a very rough/dangerous ride.....This cab only lasted a few months before reverting back to the lower Gresley style cab...Neil's pictures all show the later remodelled cab.. She's not as pretty as a Gresley Pacific but from what I've read was a very capable locomotive, I have a large 3 1/2" gauge model sitting in front of me in the front room as I type this...I like her...but not as much as Gresley's original A1 design.....for me, there is nothing more beautiful...

Pete

TheSteamKing82 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:51 am ... A1/1 Great Northern in action, or any sound recordings of what her whistle and puffing sounded like? ...

The main factors determining the engine sound are the exhaust arrangement and smokebox volume. Which are equivalent to those on the Peppercorn A1, which you can go out and hear in action 'live'!

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:21 am

TheSteamKing82 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:51 am ... A1/1 Great Northern in action, or any sound recordings of what her whistle and puffing sounded like? ...

The main factors determining the engine sound are the exhaust arrangement and smokebox volume. Which are equivalent to those on the Peppercorn A1, which you can go out and hear in action 'live'!

Don't forget the most important difference...number of cylinders...

Pete

greenglade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:05 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:21 am

TheSteamKing82 wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2017 6:51 am ... A1/1 Great Northern in action, or any sound recordings of what her whistle and puffing sounded like? ...

The main factors determining the engine sound are the exhaust arrangement and smokebox volume. Which are equivalent to those on the Peppercorn A1, which you can go out and hear in action 'live'!

Don't forget the most important difference...number of cylinders...

Pete

Since they are both three cylinder machines, not a factor.

greenglade wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:59 am I recall reading that as 'rebuilt' the crews hated her due to the high cab that gave them a very rough/dangerous ride.....This cab only lasted a few months before reverting back to the lower Gresley style cab.

It's a weird one. In the course of researching my book I have seen almost universal dismissal of the original "rebuilt" cab from many commentators. I have had an email conversation with one gentleman who claimed to have travelled on the locomotive with that cab.

He described it as being very similar (with its level floor) to the layout of a Standard 7MT Pacific of some years later and felt the ride quality was exacerbated by the staying arrangements used. He complimented the layout including the level floor (normally criticised heavily by LNER commentators) but felt the ride quality is what sealed its fate.

She's not as pretty as a Gresley Pacific but from what I've read was a very capable locomotive, I have a large 3 1/2" gauge model sitting in front of me in the front room as I type this...I like her...but not as much as Gresley's original A1 design.....for me, there is nothing more beautiful...

Pete

I owned a "Hielan Lassie" myself with the intention of restoring it, but losing my job at the time and a girlfriend (at the time) to support put paid to that and I had to sell it. I regret that enormously.

Great Northern remains one of my favourite locomotives. The idea, the engineering, the comparative trials, the livery, the controversy. You can take aim at many things but you cannot deny the LNER scene was rocked by this locomotive, for the better.

It may not have been picked to be the LNER's new A1 design but it did shake things up, and without it I don't believe we'd have got the sublime Peppercorn A1 that followed.

Sorry Peppercorn A1's owes nothing to GN as far as I can tell.


The A1's went back to Gresley based Pacific practises with a bit of tweaking.

Two from my collection,

departing Doncaster no date with the negative http://simonlathlane.zenfolio.com/p6651 ... #h76b2146a

On Doncaster shed near the end http://simonlathlane.zenfolio.com/p6651 ... #h7a87e8c5

If you can confirm a date that would be most appreciated thanks.

Simon

The Doncaster station photo is probably late 1950s to 1960. No overhead wire warning flashes are visible.

The one on shed has them so near the end as you say 1961-2.

EDIT: I have just looked at your original selection of 60113 images, one has a date of July 1961 with no warning flashes, so my thoughts above are not quite correct.

John