ROY@34F wrote:no, strangsteel , the L1s at highdyke were merely there at 1 or 2 pm. with a brake van conveying c/over crews for the branch. they were returning to grantham loco coupled to south facing 02s , sometimes , which had just disposed of their iron ore empties from frodingham . sometimes ,of course,there could be a frodingham WD instead . on the loaded trains, we used to c/over, when we met up , with frodingham men with the empties . see my post on "highdyke-frodingham iron ore-route?" thread.
Thanks for that Roy. It has cleared up a mystery that has intrigued me for many years.
P.S. The 1964/5 WTT that I have shows all the High Dyke - Frodingham trains changing crews at Grantham.
Some evocative pictures here, and some interesting writing too.
This is going back a bit further, but I was curious about Grantham's allocation in earlier years. On 1/1/48 it had 56 locos, including 10 - yes, 10! - A4s - more than any other shed. It also had 4 A3s, 4 B1s, 4 D2s, 1 D3 (62000), 4 C1 large Atlantics, and. for freight, 9 O2s plus 8 Q4s and 7 J6s. There were just 5 tanks - a pair of C12s and 3 J52s.
Back on 1/1/23 it had 67 locos: 30 large Atlantics(!), 4 small Atlantics, 3 D1s, 4 D2s, 2 D4s and 7 E1s. For freight it had just 12 0-6-0s - 1 J3, 5 J4s, 3 J5s, and 3 J6s. Finally, there were still 5 tanks, but all 0-6-0Ts - 1 J52, 3 J54s and a J57.
So it seems the emphasis was more on passenger workings in 1923 and the depot didn't merit any of the GN's 8-coupled locos.
[Sources: Banks "British Railways locomotives 1948" and Yeadon "LNER Locomotive allocations 1st January 1923"]
Does anyone know the workings for all those A4s? Or when it lost its A4 allocation?
ROY@34F wrote:no, strangsteel , the L1s at highdyke were merely there at 1 or 2 pm. with a brake van conveying c/over crews for the branch. they were returning to grantham loco coupled to south facing 02s , sometimes , which had just disposed of their iron ore empties from frodingham . sometimes ,of course,there could be a frodingham WD instead . on the loaded trains, we used to c/over, when we met up , with frodingham men with the empties . see my post on "highdyke-frodingham iron ore-route?" thread.
Thanks for that Roy. It has cleared up a mystery that has intrigued me for many years.
P.S. The 1964/5 WTT that I have shows all the High Dyke - Frodingham trains changing crews at Grantham.
John
I just came across this photo of an L1 and brakevan at Great Ponton captioned '...photographed from the signalbox is the High Dyke iron ore branch crew change run headed by Thompson L1 2-6-4T 67757'
in reply to 61070,p19.fri.3 sept.,the photo of 2 o2s coupled on the up main..the north faceing one will be going to pick up an iron ore train at h/dyke bound for frodingham.the south facing one will be heading up the stainby branch,always chimney first up the 1 in 40 bank from h/dyke to keep the firebox crown covered in water!(see my post:h/dyke-frodingham-iron ore route? thread ,p.2,thu.10 june.) as regards mess rooms in the loco.,yes i can help i think .going north from the water tower,the first opening was the stores,which extended back under the water tank.the next door was the cleaner's mess room,a right muck hole,to keep things polite! with a large open fire in it.next was the driver's and fireman's mess room.this occupied 2 of the arches under the old coaling stage,a connecting door into a locker room,with a couple of wash handbasins,and all kept somewhat more civilised.the next 2 arches were kept locked,and contained new fireirons for one thing,but not sure what else. from the stores one could obtain such things as oil and swab(parrafin?) and rags for cleaning ;oil and oil feeders for locos preparation,white cloths(a standard daily issue to enginemen,in return for a dirty one,which would be washed,and then known as a "first wash cloth".after that they were used for cleaning).lamps etc. the stores extended back under the water tank,where clothing,caps and all sorts of things were kept.
further to my reply to 61070; regarding iron ore trains going "round the back"in the goods road..i can't remember ever doing this;maybe in the diesel era,post'63,as strang steel refers to at the top of this page,but not in steam days.i frequently fired on these trains .i can recall,however very occasionally being "put inside"in saltersford loop,in fact i once remember sliding past the signal there,after frantically whistleing for the guard to help with his brake!it was a surprise to be turned in there.we almost always got a clear run to barkston,and the drivers would just let 'em roll as fast as they dare..i also remember once sliding past barkston south's home signal at red,because of an up train approaching and blocking our crossover path.we managed to reverse,get on the blower to the "bobby" , and got away with it.i was with driver george lancaster that day i think.how common that sort of thing was i don't know,but i do seem to have experienced quite a few incidents in my 6 years on the footplate!! i have also seen the photo at gt. ponton,refered to by 61070 today , of the L1 and brake.i remember that,of course. it was ussually an L1 , but sometimes any thing that was available.i have heard of an A3 being used,believe it or not. it always ran around 1.30 p.m. taking c/over crews,as correctly stated.the branch engines returning to loco,with the guards,around 9.30 p.m.
kudu wrote:Some evocative pictures here, and some interesting writing too.
This is going back a bit further, but I was curious about Grantham's allocation in earlier years. On 1/1/48 it had 56 locos, including 10 - yes, 10! - A4s - more than any other shed. It also had 4 A3s, 4 B1s, 4 D2s, 1 D3 (62000), 4 C1 large Atlantics, and. for freight, 9 O2s plus 8 Q4s and 7 J6s. There were just 5 tanks - a pair of C12s and 3 J52s.
Back on 1/1/23 it had 67 locos: 30 large Atlantics(!), 4 small Atlantics, 3 D1s, 4 D2s, 2 D4s and 7 E1s. For freight it had just 12 0-6-0s - 1 J3, 5 J4s, 3 J5s, and 3 J6s. Finally, there were still 5 tanks, but all 0-6-0Ts - 1 J52, 3 J54s and a J57.
Kudu
From reading certain local line histories, I would suggest that in the 1920s and 30s the D class locos were working local services to Sleaford, Boston, Lincoln and Leicester (Belgrave Road), and the J class tender locos were employed in local freight turns on the same routes. There are a few photos of these that I have seen in various publications
`ROY@34F - thanks for clearing up for us 'who was where' in the rooms under the old coaling stage. Your tales make 'the loco' seem almost to come to life again.
Thank you also for putting me right on the use of the goods road by the ironstone trains – or, should I say, the rarity of its use by them, and I will edit that sentence. I certainly do recall the ironstone trains passing through the station without stopping on the down main line in steam days, as several of my father's photographs show. When it's in view in a photo you can usually see the North 'box down distant on the approach to the station indicating a clear road through, as in the picture of 90189 at the beginning of this thread. Your two stories of the challenge of having to bring 1,000 tons or more of ironstone to a halt, unexpectedly, certainly demonstrate the skills involved in managing heavy unfitted mineral trains among fast traffic over the descending gradient of the down main line.
One of my father's pictures taken on 22nd August 1963, and which is really a 'portrait' of two of the station staff standing on platform 5, shows some wagons of a loaded ironstone train behind them on the goods road. Must have been the exception, with perhaps some bad-tempered words uttered on the footplate!
As there's been discussion of O4s at Grantham here (though I don't recall seeing any during our visits), there's a colour photo in the book I mentioned earlier (Steam - The Mystic Harmony) of an O4 – of one of the re-boilered types – as it happens, getting a down stone train under way on the goods line (page 99).
Finally you might like to know that two of your former colleagues get a mention in the current issue of 'Steam Days' (Sept 2010, No.253). There's an article about a special train titled The Pennine Limited which ran on 26 April 1958 from King's Cross to Euston via Leeds, Stockport and Crewe. Between Grantham and Leeds it was crewed by Driver E. Ranby and Fireman E. Matsell and there are three photographs in the article of a gleaming 60157 with the pair of them in charge, and sometimes visible in the cab. I met Ted Matsell when he came to my slide show at the Grantham Railway Society last year.
thanks,61070, yes i remember eric ranby and ted matsel..don't recall fireing for eric, though i may have ,of course ..as you say,i feel it must have been an exception to see a stone train on the goods road; unless there was aproblem with the engine,or something else.we will never know now ,i suppose .
More interesting information, especially re the iron ore trains, and Roy's memories.
I have said it a few timies now, but it is so nice to find an informative and friendly forum (not just this thread), and mainly to find such helpful advice. I hope that I can post some pictures of my own when I have the time to scan in the slides!
I have been pouring over some of my books this weekend and found some more information re loco changes and loco types. I will try to start to put togther a list but it seems that locos were still changed up to 1961 with engines from KX, York, Heaton, Gateshead and of course Grantham taking part. I was quite surprised to find that A2s were not uncommon from Heaton. In addition there were some Sunday workings that were used to run in locos after work at Doncaster on a Grantham-Doncaster "Parly" train.
It seems that the B1s and L1s were used on Nottingham/Derby trains as Roy has said, and I assume Skegness. Does anybody know the type of stock used on the local trains before the DMUs took over? were they LMS or LNER stock?
There are some photos of O4s, but not as prevalent as one book hinted it seems.
I was also quite surprised to still see A4s from KX taking over UP trains, still into 1961.
I guess that the switch over to Diesels (especially Deltics) caused the change in pacific workings and their associated links.
Can anybody confirm whether there was a station pilot at Grantham, or shunting loco for the stock and freights, or were these undertaken by the larger types. I think I recall somehwere an. allocation of a J69.
I cant give any information on the steam services on the Skegness and associated services prior to dieselisation, but I doubt that L1s were used on these trains. I imagine a lot of services were handled by Boston locos, so K2s would be likely candidates. I have seen photos and read reports of B12s on the Grantham - Lincoln services in the early 1950s. A5s are another likely class for the stopping services.
2-car diesel units took over quite a lot of the local Lincolnshire services in the Summer of 1955. Initially, these were Derby lightweight units in the E79xxx series, but after a couple of years the Derby heavyweights (later class 114) were allocated to Lincoln and these (with help from a few Cravens units from the early 60s) virtually monopolised the services to the east of Grantham for the next 35 years.
I dont think Grantham shed played much part in those services after the mid-50s.
61070 ought to have an idea of when the Nottingham services were dieselised, as he was making much more regular visits than I was. I know that my last journey by steam from Grantham to Nottingham was in January 1963 and that had an L1 in charge; but as that was in the middle of the big freeze that year, I am not sure if steam was a temporary measure because of the difficulties with dmus in the cold weather.
Looking at the few photographs that I have found so far, the pre-dmu stock seemed to be a mixture of all kinds of ex-LNER stock with what looks like a few ex-GC coaches at times.
I've been up in the loft at the weekend finding my Section A freight WTT for Sept 1960 in order to try and answer some of the freight queries posed recently. Section A is effectively the freight WTT for the whole of the KX Division, as it later became, and includes times on and off Grantham for the Nottingham line freights.
First off the Grantham pilots, which are listed in the back.
Grantham Loco - Emergency Engine - Continuous weekdays and Sundays at Grantham South
Grantham Pass - No 1 - 7.30pm Sunday to 4.20am Sunday - Up Passenger shunting
Grantham Pass - No 2 - 6.0am to 10.15 am, 5.45pm to 9.0pm Monday to Saturday, 10.0am to 4.30 pm Sunday - Shunting in Carriage Sidings.
Grantham Goods - No 3 - 6.0am to 9.30pm Monday, 6.35am to 9.35pm Tuesday to Saturday, 11.0pm to 7.0am Monday to Saturday - Down Goods Yard. also works 6.50am trip to Ambergate Yard, returning 7.30am.
Grantham Goods - No 4 - 3.30pm to 9.30pm Monday to Friday, 1.30pm to 8.30pm Saturday - Ambergate Yard shunting.
Grantham Goods - No 5 - 3.00pm to 11.0pm Monday to Friday - Up Goods Yard (takes up No 3 pilot duty from 10.0pm)
Grantham Goods - No 6 - 9.0am to 5.0pm Sunday (Q) - Goods Yard shunting.
Of course No 1 would not have worked solid for the best part of a week - it would have been swapped over as required. the emergency duty would have been a pacific - the rest something far less exotic! All would have been steam at this date.
strang steel wrote:
61070 ought to have an idea of when the Nottingham services were dieselised, as he was making much more regular visits than I was. I know that my last journey by steam from Grantham to Nottingham was in January 1963 and that had an L1 in charge; but as that was in the middle of the big freeze that year, I am not sure if steam was a temporary measure because of the difficulties with dmus in the cold weather.
John
The Grantham Journal, Friday 4th January 1963, page 7:
TRAIN SERVICE ALTERATIONS FROM MONDAY
Commencing on Monday alterations are to be made to Eastern Region train services.
The London (King's Cross) to Lincoln (Central) 12.10am Mondays only train will be withdrawn...
Passenger steam trains between Grantham, Bottesford, Elton and Orston, Aslockton, Bingham, Radcliffe-on-Trent, Netherfield and Colwick, Nottingham London Road (High Level) and Nottingham (Victoria) will be replaced by diesel multiple-unit trains. The revised service will mainly follow the pattern of the existing timetable, but with slight variations.
How reliable this substitution was over the coming weeks in the face of the freezing conditions is not related in susequent editions of the weekly newspaper.
On Saturday 2nd March 1963 a minor accident was reported at the station beween two dmu trains. A train arriving from Nottingham collided with another unit which was stationary in the bay platform. '...more than 15 people suffered injuries, most of them slight...' Two people went to hospital, but neither was detained.
Thanks 61070. My goodness. I must have been very lucky to have steam haulage to/from Nottingham after the dmus had taken over. I presume that it was due to the bitterly cold weather. I do know that for a week to 10 days on the Grantham-Boston line in Jan 63, Ivatt class 4 2-6-0s and sets of 3 non-corridor coaches were also substituted for the Derby units.
I have been searching through my book collection for photos of Grantham-Boston services prior to the diesels, and have only found one so far which is J6 64247 at Swineshead with what looks like three Thompson non-corridors (forgive me as I am not good on differentiating coaching stock).
The caption says it is on a local train to Grantham, and the formation would appear to be brake second, second, brake composite.
Andy W - thanks for the excursion into your loft for the list of pilots and the number of hours rostered; it's impressive.
This is two years before our first visit, and getting on for three before we started regular trips. I expect the whole show was well into decline by spring 1963. Certainly I don't recall nearly as much activity as these duties would suggest, in fact the goods yards seemed pretty lifeless. I hadn't realised that there was 'officially' a goods yard on the down side until I saw that was allocated the No.3 pilot duty in your list. I was aware that there was an area alongside 'the loco' with surfacing for road vehicles between the tracks, presumably accessed from Springfield Road. It's shown in the link from my post here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3158&p=25463&hilit=Donovan#p25463 . There seems not to be a goods shed, and no loading dock or platform is visible in any pictures I've seen. Can anyone say more about the facilities offered there? I'll see if I can get a look at a copy of the BR 'Handbook of Stations' sometime.
