GNR Wood Green

[StevieG]

I can confirm Dave Cockle's and other posts, of WG No.3 box (telegraph code 'YF') having had a 40-lever frame (not sure if it would've been a S&F frame, but seems quite likely as No.1's and No.2's were) , No.2 ('BO') having a 50-frame , and the through crossover there once extending to the Down Sidings 1 & 2 (until at least c1935 according to a copy I have of someone else's sketch diagram) : 'the crossover' at it's fullest extent took up 13 of No.3's levers, so without that, your 25 would've been about right Mickey.

FWIW, the other frame sizes at Wood Green were - No.1 ('WO'), 75 ; No.4 ('AU'), 57 ; Tunnel Box ('TK'), 20 ; and by the 1940s Bounds Green ('DG') had been extended to 33.
I think it was Harry Creek at No.2, as was Alan Layton at that time.

Seems I can't help with No.3's closure date, though I always had some impression that Tunnel went in about '63/'64, and No.3 around '66/'67 : Does that fit your memories Eddie?
I'd concur with you, Eddie, on No.3 probably being quite busy when its telegraph 'wiring on' duties were taken into account. It had closed before I started taking in the GN signalling scene, including being allowed to 'learn' No.1, which then had taken over what was left of No.3's layout and stop signals, and so had also been put on the YF-HT circuit so that it could take on the 'wiring on' work, so once I had the telegraph learnt sufficiently to do MT messages, I liked the chance to visit No.1 of an evening when there was always several freights to send on, IIRC to BN ('Barnet North'), PO (Potters Bar), JV (Hatfield 3), YE (Welwyn North), WG (Woolmer Green), and SG (Stevenage North).

No.2 Box's Up Slow Distants : The same person's sketch diagrams show that at one time (until at least 1903), the Up Slow-Up Goods connection's crossing of the "Up Branch" ('Enfield') line had only a single slip, allowing moves UB-UG but not US-UB, so No.2's left-hand of the then two US Homes used to read US-UG; the double slip in the Up Branch apparently coming later (by c1935), with the former US-UG Home then applying US-UB, and needing an extra Home for US-UG adding to the left of that wide bracket, making it the 4-doll balanced bracket affair, with that wide gap between the Up Fast and US signals, that we came to know so well (it was another lattice-post structure).

Now, No.2's US Distant arrangements seem to pre-date the US-UB route being provided, as Inner Dist. disc 22 and Outer Dist. signal 23 were for the US-UG route at No.2 Box, and New Southgate's Up Starters/No.2's Distant arms, into at least the later 1950s, was a 3-doll, 2-bracket, completely of concrete components structure of unusual configuration : The US Starter NS.23 with WG2.11 US Outer Distant below, together on the main post or a doll only slightly left of it ; the WG2.23 US-UG Outer Distant was lower on a left-hand bracket, and the NS.16 UF Starter and WG2.4 Distant arms higher, on a right-hand bracket that was itself completely higher than the left-hand bracket. I remember a great colour photo, in one of the one-time 'magazines', I think possibly the one titled Railway Reflections, taken not far south of NS station, looking towards Wood Green Tunnel from the Down side 'line path', of a closely-approaching A4-hauled Down express with this splendid structure of these Up signals not far in the background.

Those WG2 US Inner Distants in the tunnel must have originally and always have been some sort of ground or miniature signal used in this unusual way and location, owing to the tight clearances in the single bore tunnel, which also no doubt explains why they were positioned one on either side of the line rather than together. Anyway I clearly remember that by the time I was getting interested in such things, about 1966/7, a post-removal of the US-UG Distants DMU journey Up the Slow with the driver's cab rear blinds up (thank you driver, whoever you were) revealed that the remaining US Inner Distant in the tunnel (WG2.10) - now the one on the left, (no doubt to accord with the general principle for signals to be on drivers' left-hand side), was definitely a yellow-striped standard LNER/BR(E) upper quadrant 'dolly' mounted on the tunnel wall at about cab floor height.
Quite why the Outer Distants were put so far from WG2, under NS's Starters, I don't know (IIRC the box diagram had them at something like '1835 yards from box'), and I never saw the US's WG2.11 'Off', so might've been a really hard pull (and not using it much or not at all wouldn't have helped).
[ The 1903 diagram shows them independent of New Southgate's signals, at 1493 yards, so they were then probably at the entrance to WG Tunnel.]
Perhaps the WG2.4 Up Fast Distant needed to be moved further out for an increasing linespeed (and so was put under 'Southgate's Starter) and someone decided the US Outer Distants should to be positioned parallel with it, though there were plenty of places on 'the GN' that had the Fast and Slow Distants at different locations right up until the resignalling.

[Mickey]

At Wood Green Up Box No.2 and it's Up fast & Up slow lines signal gantry i do actually remember one day seeing the signalman trying to pull off the Up slow to Up Goods line home signal (the extreme left-hand semaphore arm on that gantry) which he appeared to try several times with the arm coming off then going back on again before coming off again and then going back on again before finally coming off again and then being left showing a 'poor off' which was an indication (to me) that it was very rarely pulled off, to be honest i don't believe i had ever seen that arm or the 2nd arm on the gantry from the left the Up slow to Up Enfield line (i believe?) ever pulled off either?.

Wood Green Up Box No.2s Up fast line home signal along with Wood Green Up Box No.4s distant below it on that gantry was usually to be seen off at anytime along with Wood Green Up Box No.2s Up slow line home signal as well on the same gantry but Wood Green Up Box No.4s distant signal below it was usually only to be seen at caution and very rarely if hardly ever to be seen pulled off?.

As for Wood Green Up Box No.2s Up slow line distant signal below New Southgate's Up slow line starting signal i do actually remember seeing it pulled off ONCE one day when i was riding on a Down slow line train approaching New Southgate station (and box) when moments later a Brush type 4 hauling a train of large oil tanks along the Up slow line passed by approaching said signal with the distant signal showing off along with New Southgate's Up slow line starting signal as well and obviously i presume that would mean that Wood Green Up Box No.4 had also 'pulled off' along the Up slow line through Wood Green station with all his signals off thus enabling Wood Green Up Box No.2 to 'clear' his Up slow line distant signal as well.

That was the magic of block working and mechanical signalling from the golden days...


Mickey

[StevieG]

[ I've just made a few tweaks to improve that last post of mine Mickey, in case you may want to re-read it : Apologies.]

[Dave Cockle]

Yes Mickey, during my time at Wood Green No 4 (1972/3) the three resident signalmen at Wood Green No 2 were:-

Harry Creek
Alan Leyton
Basil Laravere

Harry Creek retired just before the box closed.
Alan Leyton got a job up Kings Cross PSB
Basil went on the relief then after the last London End mechanical box closed went to Chingford.

Basil was an interesting Character. He was Anglo Indian and used to be a steam locomotive driver on Indian Railways.

[Mickey]

Yes Mickey, during my time at Wood Green No 4 (1972/3) the three resident signalmen at Wood Green No 2 were:-

Harry Creek
Alan Leyton
Basil Laravere

Harry Creek retired just before the box closed.
Alan Leyton got a job up Kings Cross PSB
Basil went on the relief then after the last London End mechanical box closed went to Chingford.

Basil was an interesting Character. He was Anglo Indian and used to be a steam locomotive driver on Indian Railways.

Basil Laravere?. I never knew or heard of him i don't think but a railway colleague who's currently a signaller (signaller a non-sexist term introduced by Railtrack circa 1998/99) started at Chingford around 1986 i'll ask him if he's heard of the name Basil Laravere?.

Mickey

[Mickey]

Yes Mickey, during my time at Wood Green No 4 (1972/3) the three resident signalmen at Wood Green No 2 were:-

Harry Creek
Alan Leyton
Basil Laravere

Harry Creek retired just before the box closed.
Alan Leyton got a job up Kings Cross PSB
Basil went on the relief then after the last London End mechanical box closed went to Chingford.

Basil was an interesting Character. He was Anglo Indian and used to be a steam locomotive driver on Indian Railways.

Basil Laravere?. I never knew or heard of him i don't think but a railway colleague who's currently a signaller (signaller a non-sexist term introduced by Railtrack circa 1998/99) started at Chingford around 1986 i'll ask him if he's heard of the name Basil Laravere?.

I asked the signaller who's currently on the job and was at Chingford in 1986 and he said he'd never heard of Basil Laravere although it was about 10 years after Basil would have gone there in the mid 1970s.

Mickey

[StevieG]

Yes Mickey, during my time at Wood Green No 4 (1972/3) the three resident signalmen at Wood Green No 2 were:-

Harry Creek
Alan Leyton
Basil Laravere

Harry Creek retired just before the box closed.
Alan Leyton got a job up Kings Cross PSB
Basil went on the relief then after the last London End mechanical box closed went to Chingford.

Basil was an interesting Character. He was Anglo Indian and used to be a steam locomotive driver on Indian Railways.

Basil Laravere?. I never knew or heard of him i don't think but a railway colleague who's currently a signaller (signaller a non-sexist term introduced by Railtrack circa 1998/99) started at Chingford around 1986 i'll ask him if he's heard of the name Basil Laravere?.

I asked the signaller who's currently on the job and was at Chingford in 1986 and he said he'd never heard of Basil Laravere although it was about 10 years after Basil would have gone there in the mid 1970s.

Mickey

For the record, I'm pretty sure Basil's surname was actually "La Riviere" as I knew him quite well when he was at New Southgate prior to going to Wood Green 2.
Last saw him when he was at Hornsey Up Goods while on the relief.

[EddieBN]

Back on the subject of the down sidings No's 1 & 2 between Wood Green No.3 and Wood Green Tunnel boxes, is it possible these sidings may have been used to stable passenger stock ? At their southern end they merged into a heads hunt, handy for running round any stock and then to use the crossover between No's 3 and 2 boxes to head south ? Thanks Stevie for the info on frame sizes on the other Wood Green boxes...incidentally, we used to call No.1 (WO) box "waterworks". You mention Harry Creek and Alan Layton....when I was at New Barnet North and working with Brian Barr I'm sure Harry was always on at Wood Green No.2 and Alan was at Cemetery...this was around 1962/63. I think your'e about right with the closure date of Wood Green Tunnel box, probably 1963. Not sure about Wood Green No.3 closure date. I was signalman at Oakleigh Park (OH) until Feb 1968 and I don't remember it being closed then. Stevie, when you were "learning" Wood Green No.1, do you remember if the regular signalmen had used the single needle before the closure of No.3 and Tunnel boxes or was it something new to them ? I agree, the sending and receiving of info on the telegraph could be quite time consuming. When I was t/lad at New Barnet North,we received all this info on down trains from Wood Green Tunnel and when that was closed , from Wood Green No.3 . In turn, when trains passed BN this had to be sent on. T.C Block was in operation between Barnet North and Potters Bar (PO) and the train describer would send the train description to PO on hitting PO's first track circuit (bell code not train number!) When this happened we just sent the train number on the telegraph (no calling PO anything !) We then had to send it "properly" to Hatfield No.1. (HD) Hatfield No.3 (JV) Welwyn Garden City (CT) Woolmer Green (WG) Hitchin South (HF) and Hithin Yard (HC) . If you were lucky most would have heard it first time round and give you "rt" (OK) when called up. On the subject of distant signals being pulled off (or not) , when I was at OH the up slow outer distant was under Barnet South's up slow home on the end of the platform at New Barnet but was'nt too bad a pull. On the other hand , the Oakleigh Park up goods distant, located nearly opposite Barnet South box never got used the same as Barnet South's down goods distant located under the footbridge at the north end of Oakleigh Park station.....I never saw it 'off'.

Eddie

[Mickey]

Yes Mickey, during my time at Wood Green No 4 (1972/3) the three resident signalmen at Wood Green No 2 were:-

Harry Creek
Alan Leyton
Basil Laravere

Harry Creek retired just before the box closed.
Alan Leyton got a job up Kings Cross PSB
Basil went on the relief then after the last London End mechanical box closed went to Chingford.
[/i]

One of the Creek brother's and i'm not sure which one but one of them spent a lot of time working as a 'pointsman' at the southern entrance to Ferme Park Down sidings circa 1974-75 i recall and he was often to be seen outside of his lobby setting up the road for approaching ECS trains from Kings Cross. The pointsman's 'lobby' was a portable plastic looking 1970s 'telephone box' structure located in the vincinity just north of the old Ferme Park South Down (box) staircase along side the brick retaining wall at that point before the sidings roads proper opened out.

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Hi Mickey, Noted your info on the pointsman's "lobby" at Ferme Park South Down. I guess this was set up after the 'box was closed, and was interfaced with the then new KX psb ? Was the Ferme Park yard still busy at that time ? In the 'old days' when I was at Finsbury Park No.5 (GY) we used to work Permissive Block with Ferme Park South Down 'box on the down goods line and remember those cross London freights queued up on the down goods before getting accepted into Ferme Park. On the down goods block instrument in No.5 there was a counter so you could keep a check on how many trains were in block (quite handy, as long as you didn't miss any 2-1's from south down 'box !)

Cheers, Eddie

[Mickey]

Hiya Eddie, that pointsman's 'lobby' was probably to grand a word for it it was ya typical 1970s all plastic looking telephone box with perspex windows on atleast 3 sides of it. It was there during the 1974-75 time period and it may have been there a year or two before 1974 i can't remember?. Finsbury Park 5 (box) was still working over ALL the Down lines with either Hornsey No.1 & Ferme Park North Down (s/boxes) through most of 1974 because from memory i don't think Finsbury Park 5 closed until around October of 1974?. Anyway again from memory the southern entrance to Ferme Park Down ECS sidings was controlled from Ferme Park North Down (box) via motor operated points after Ferme Park South Down (box) had closed in December 1969 so i presume the pointsman at the southern entrance to Ferme Park Down ECS sidings would have spoken with the Ferme Park North Down signalman about any approaching ECS trains going into Ferme Park Down ECS sidings coming from the Finsbury Park direction and then i presume the pointsman would have rung up the Ferme Park shunter who was usually located in the 'main shunters & train crews messing lobby' opposite Ferme Park North Down (box) towards the northern exit from the Ferme Park Down ECS sidings to findout what road the shunter wanted the ECS to arrive on??.

As you mite remember Eddie there was Permissive Block working over the Down Goods line between Welwyn Garden City (box) & Welwyn North (box) but when i was at 'Garden City' during 1972-73 that Down Goods road wasn't used that much by then although i do actually remember on a couple of occasions in that time of having 2 freight trains (or a light engine and a freight?) both on the Down Goods line between 'Garden City' box & the Digswell at the sametime. The Digswell 'turn out' from the Down Goods line (and the Up fast to Up slow line 'turn in') was controlled by Welwyn North (box) via motor operated points.

Ferme Park Down ECS sidings became quite busy for awhile during the mid 1970s with ECS trains using it but i left the area around late 1975 but i believe it became 'run down' again during the late 1970s & 1980s as loco hauled ECS was phased out.

Today Ferme Park Down sidings is the site of a Aggregates works with mainly stone trains using it.

Mickey

[EddieBN]

Thanks for that Mickey....how do you manage to remember all that info ?? Just like you I remember, when I was at BN, the up slow to up goods signal No.71 also had signal No.72 'calling-on' into the up goods under the Permissive block regs. although I don't ever remember it ever being used. Back on the Ferme Park theme, I can picture the 'box being very high up backing on to a very tall retaining wall....have you any details of frame size or type ?

Cheers, Eddie.

[Mickey]

Thanks for that Mickey....how do you manage to remember all that info ?? Just like you I remember, when I was at BN, the up slow to up goods signal No.71 also had signal No.72 'calling-on' into the up goods under the Permissive block regs. although I don't ever remember it ever being used. Back on the Ferme Park theme, I can picture the 'box being very high up backing on to a very tall retaining wall....have you any details of frame size or type ?.

I was really interested in railways from about 3 years old in 1960 and between 1967-1975 i took a big interest in the GN Kings Cross suburban area northwards to Hitchin and then from 1970 further northwards to Peterborough North, a lot of it has stayed in my memory.

The box you are referring to Eddie was Ferme Park South Down there is a complete thread on that box (started by myself) on this forum called-

Ferme Park South Down in 1971.

The reference to the year 1971 was because myself and a railway friend visited the box in the early summer of that year (the box had actually closed in December 1969 but remained standing redundant for a number of years during the early 1970s) and we removed 6 levers and there quadrants from the lever frame and took them by train from Harringay West station back to WGC were my railway friend took all 6 levers and there quadrants back to his bungalow at Codecote near Old Welwyn anyway as the years passed i lost contact with my friend but strangely enough those 6 levers from Ferme Park South Down turned up many years later in R.Pike's possession who comes on the forum.

The total number of levers in the Ferme Park South Down lever frame was 36 levers.

Mickey

[StevieG]

The recent posts here caused me to realise that I overlooked responding to the post of yours of about six weeks ago Eddie, that included the following quotes : Sincere apologies.

" Back on the subject of the down sidings No's 1 & 2 between Wood Green No.3 and Wood Green Tunnel boxes, is it possible these sidings may have been used to stable passenger stock ? At their southern end they merged into a heads hunt, handy for running round any stock and then to use the crossover between No's 3 and 2 boxes to head south ? .... "

Sure I saw, a long time ago, a photo in a book, taken from on or near Bridge Road Bridge, that showed coaching stock in those sidings, possibly of 4 or 6-wheelers in GN times. But remember that the sidings were only accessible from the Up side via the long crossover, or by setting back from the Down Goods/D.Slow at Tunnel box.

" .... Stevie, when you were "learning" Wood Green No.1, do you remember if the regular signalmen had used the single needle before the closure of No.3 and Tunnel boxes or was it something new to them ? .... "

Sorry, can't say what 'wiring on' they then had or didn't have to do : I got to see it no earlier than 1967, by which time the Nos.2/3 boxes' crossover had gone, the Down-side cutting side by the station had already slipped over the DG, blocking that line, permanently as it was to turn out. but restrained from spreading further by concrete-topped pile-driven steel, No.3 was already non-operational, the DG then ended just beyond the N. end of the Down Loading Dock at the DG-DS2 points, and No.3's 'scissors' crossovers between Down Slow 1 / DS and the DS 2 / D.Hertford had become motor-worked from No.1, along with the associated signals.

" .... T.C Block was in operation between Barnet North and Potters Bar (PO) and the train describer would send the train description to PO on hitting PO's first track circuit (bell code not train number!) When this happened we just sent the train number on the telegraph (no calling PO anything !) .... "

Remember that set-up well Eddie.
My most memorable such occasion was on the Up, when "23 22" appeared in the Describers' US '1st Approaching' berth and the single-needle tick-tocked out "TWO KG ENGS" from Potters Bar. [For those unfamiliar with this location/working, the "23 22" represented the Absolute Block "Is Line Clear for...?" bell code 2-pause-3 for a light engine, plus 2-pause-2 for 'engine assisting in rear', and KG was the telegraph code for Kings Cross Goods (yard office).]

" .... On the subject of distant signals being pulled off (or not) , when I was at OH the up slow outer distant was under Barnet South's up slow home on the end of the platform at New Barnet but was'nt too bad a pull. On the other hand , the Oakleigh Park up goods distant, located nearly opposite Barnet South box never got used the same as Barnet South's down goods distant located under the footbridge at the north end of Oakleigh Park station.....I never saw it 'off'.
Eddie "

I'd agree about Oakleigh Park's Up Slow Outer Distant (18) Eddie, but when it was not uncommon to see 18 stay at Caution when 17 Inner Dist. was 'off', admittedly usually for the (half-hourly?) stopping passenger trains, it was possible to draw one's own conclusion as to the reason why.
I too never saw OP's UG Dist. (No.24) 'off', or saw its lever pulled, while in the box.
Re 'Barnet South's Down Goods Distant (11), never saw that operated for a train either, although, once 'Barnet North's southern DS-DF turnout (17 FPL / 18) was abolished, there may have been very little opportunity (or inclination?) to pull the BS DG Distant, I did, one quiet and not particularly cold Saturday, discover another possible reason : Deciding, and being allowed, to pull the DG Home (BS12: Being the only signal on this Permissive road, it had no LC release of course) so that I could try the Distant (11), after an easy and trouble-free "OFF" on its repeater, no way would it go back fully even after making sure that the wire on the wire adjuster was completely let out, instead resolutely hanging at "WRONG" and could be seen to be about 10-degrees above horizontal : This thus naturally being followed by a 'nice' walk southwards, with about four frequent pauses to have a go at pulling No.11's wire back towards the signal, and then looking towards BS Box to see if there was a wave from the signalman to indicate a successful "ON", which finally occurred when I was south of Longmore Avenue rail-over-road bridge, and about 2/3 of the way from the box to the signal : Never tried that signal again !

[Mickey]

... On the subject of distant signals being being pulled off (or not)

On the Kings Cross suburban route between Kings Cross & Welwyn Garden City the distant signals that were usually to be found at 'caution' on the Down slow line(s) during the 1960s & early 1970s were at the following s/boxes-

Finsbury Park 3
Finsbury Park 5
Wood Green no.1
New Barnet South Box
New Barnet North Box
Hatfield no.1
Hatfield no.3 (from December 1969 Hatfield no.2)
Welwyn Garden City- All passenger trains approaching WGC on the Down slow line from Hatfield that were either Terminating at WGC or going forward northwards beyond WGC over the Down Main line would always receive a Yellow/caution aspect at the Down slow line colour light distant signal (no.7 lever).

Also between Welwyn Garden City & Kings Cross the distant signals that were usually to be found at 'caution' on the Up slow line during the 1960s & early 1970s were at the following s/boxes-

Hatfield no.2
Hatfield no.1
New Barnet South Box
Oakleigh Park Up slow line outter distant signal
Wood Green Up Box no.2
Wood Green Up Box no.4
Finsbury Park 6
Finsbury Park 4

The reason that the above distant signals were usually to be found at 'caution' was to do with the box that they applied to the signalman having 'held the block' before offering the train on to the box in advance and having it accepted and then the home signals to which the distant signals applied to would be 'pulled off' by the signalman usually with the train either already at the home signal or just approaching the home signal?.

In the case of the Finsbury Park 3s Down slow no.1 line distant signal being at 'caution' it was a different reason the train on the Down slow no.1 line coming from Holloway North Down (box) would have been offered on and accepted by Finsbury Park 5 but the Finsbury Park 5 signalman would have 'held the block' until the train had run into the Down slow no.1 line platform before he offered it onto either Harringay or Hornsey no.1 or Wood Green no.1 if either Harringay or Hornsey no.1 (boxes) were 'swithed out' of the circuit which because of the short-block section between Finsbury Park 3 & Finsbury Park 5 would prevent the Finsbury Park 3 signalman 'pulling off' his Down slow no.1 line distant signal (on the gantry) until he had offered it on to the box in advance a similar working was repeated on the Up slow line between Finsbury Park 6 & Finsbury Park 4 (boxes).

In the case of New Barnet South Box Down slow line distant signal being at 'caution' the train would have been offered on and accepted by New Barnet North Box but because of the short-block section(s) between Oakleigh Park-New Barnet South Box-New Barnet North Box if New Barnet North Box signalman hadn't cleared his Down slow line home & distant signal (which was usually the case) then New Barnet South Box signalman couldn't clear his Down slow line distant signal at the north end of Oakleigh Park station platform.

Mickey