I wanted to start a new thread so I didn't have to keep poaching ten ten's thread, sorry Chris. As you've guessed from above this is all about J77's. I am a 7mm modeller and want to build a 7mm model of a particular loco, 8440 to be precise. Looking through Yeadons the only picture to be found of this loco is in the background the a shot below, and you just get the front end. The main interest here is that this is the only J77 with the Worsdell Cab fitted example in the right place at the right time for my period. Also of interest it is only one of three to receive new shallow frames and the J72 type front splashers. Does anybody know of further images of this loco and if any drawings are avaliable to help me recreate this model. The only other picture I have from Yeadons is another of the three showing the shallow frames etc, but the cab front windows are square and i'm not sure if this is the case with 8440. Any help would be greatly appreciated,
I have found a small photo from an old ended ebay listing for when J77 No. 68440 was at Heaton (Allocated to Heaton (52B) - 19/07/1952 until condemned August 1954). It shows that the cab roof being of the Worsdell type, which would put 8440 in the later rebuild batch. The photo of No. 8361 with an 844X J77 in the background has an original BTP rounded cab of the first rebuild batch.
I have gone in to Yeadon's register and it lists 68440 (8440) as originally being No. 290 - which means that it was the first to rebuilt, (NER Class 290) and not in the later rebuild batch as I thought above. Page 108 shows No. 290 in LNER days with a Worsdell cab similar to the ebay photo. Therefore my opinion is that the J77 behind No. 8361 is not 8440 but another J77, one of the other first 50 to be rebuilt and that retained the original, rounded roof BTP type cab throughout. Yeadon's says the first 50 rebuilds retained BTP cab and the rebuilds in 1921 had Worsdell cabs. However, the very first rebuilt loco, No. 290, rebuilt in June 1899 at York clearly has a Worsdell type cab by LNER days. This is despite the caption in Yeadon's saying at the 1899 rebuild that No. 290 kept its distinctive cab! I guess it was changed somewhere between the 1899 rebuild and the LNER-era photo.
The J73 No. 8361 carried that number between 26/5/46 and 16/12/49 and was allocated to Alexandra Dock shed for all that period. The photo in Yeadon's captions the No. 8361 photo as April 1949. Looking at Yeadon's Register for J77s which were at Alexandra Dock shed in April 1949 reveals the following allocation:
68401 (ex-1348/8401) - No photo in Yeadon's but rebuilt April 1907 within the first 50 so assume BTP cab.
E8402 (ex-1349/8402) - I believe that this is the loco ahead of No. 8361's chimney.
8413 (ex-614) - Yeadon lists receiving No. 68413 in October 1950 but had BTP cab.
8429 (ex-199) - Yeadon lists receiving No. 68429 in March 1950 but had BTP cab.
8435 (ex-1461) - Yeadon lists receiving No. 68435 in Sept 1951. No photo in Yeadons but a kit of 1461 shows BTP cab.
8440 (ex-290) - Yeadon lists receiving No. 68440 in Feb 1950 but had Worsdell type cab.
No. 290 was the first rebuilt to 0-6-0T but by York works in June 1899 (and therefore assigned NER Class 290)
In my opinion, (and this relies on Yeadon's having the correct renumbering data (as well as no visiting loco from Dairycoates sitting in the road)), then I believe the loco in the photo is 68401.
If you prefer to keep to 8440/68440 then the loco will need to have the Worsdell type cab.
Ken Hoole's book "An Illustrated History of N.E.R. Locomotives" (OPC 1988) has a photograph on page 197, which is of No. 290 ex-works outside York works in June 1899. It has a Worsdell roof profile, not a Fletcher roof profile but it does retain the squared Fletcher type cab windows. Therefore, if no cab alteration took place at the 1899 rebuild, I believe that the change from a Fletcher cab roof profile took place before rebuild, between 1884 and 1899 but I do not know why it was done. Corrosion or maybe some unrecorded incident.
As for "J77 were there two the same" the RCTS publication "Locomotives of the L.N.E.R." lists a few variations:
Part 8B: - Page 44 – Class J77 - “The engines rebuilt from the original Neilson series, Nos. 947-958 lost the characteristic shape of the cab, being altered to conform to the more usual Fletcher outline. The cab opening was altered so that it extended neither as far forward nor as far down. One of these engines, No. 958, also had the round spectacle windows of that batch changed to the square Fletcher type, but at the front only. Finally, of the engines rebuilt in 1907-8 Nos. 199, 319, 1344/1348 received round spectacle windows in place of their original square patterns (No. 953 also had round spectacles but this was one of the Neilson batch, which was so constructed).”
Part 8B: - Page 45 – Class J77 - “Unlike some of the rebuilds of Fletcher engines carried out in the Worsdell/Raven period, the ‘290’ class had the characteristic Fletcher oblong sandboxes mounted at the side of the smokebox, the only exceptions being Nos.138, 290 and 305. These three engines, which had underhung springs to the leading wheels were fitted with integral leading wheel splashers and sandboxes. Even the Neilson series of B.T.P. engines which originally had combined splashers and sandboxes lost these on rebuilding to class ‘290’.”
8440 (ex 290) was an odd ball and did not conform with either of the main batches of rebuilds. It does not have a Worsdell cab. Those that had were those rebuilt at Darlington in 1921. All of these had round cab windows at front and rear.
8440 was rebuilt at the York workshop and retained the original rectangular windows at front and rear. Also this was one of the late builds of BTP and had deep frames at the front. This and two others received under-slung frames for the front axle and sported a typical NER sabdbox/splasher at this axle.
The roof was that of the original BTP. The last batch these had an arc roof as opposed to the Fletcher style of the rest. All the York rebuilds kept their original cab roofs and usually the cab window style as well..
So, No. 290 did keep its original BTP cab at rebuild to 290 Class/J77, in keeping with the 'first 50 rebuilds kept their BTP cabs', just that No. 290 had a different type of BTP arc roof cab from the Fletcher, Hawthorn or Neilson builds. The other BTP out of York in 1884 was No. 305, so I have gone in search of a photograph of her. I found one in Yeadon's Volume 34B. Page 150 shows No. 305 with an arc roof of the same profile as 290. Given that it has the same integral front splasher sandboxes as No. 290 then 7mm Mick's question about whether any two were the same shows that at least two were, even if they were oddballs in terms of the usual J77 rebuilds.
I had a good read up on this subject earlier in the year and I found the Green Book on the BTP's really helpful, especially where 290 and 305 are concerned,
Thanks for the link Mick BB and myself are building the Fletcher versions mine will be No.37 with Westinghouse brake as at 52D for most of its life. Both OO Gauge ArthurK kits.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
