The LNER Encyclopedia

I am building the Hachette model of the Flying Scotsman. The period of my locomotive will be around the second world war 1939/1944.

The model as supplied has a row of holes along the top of the boiler and they suggest there would have been rivets along the boiler.

However, before committing myself to this course of action, please could any member advise me whether the locomotive would have had a visible row of rivets along the top of the boiler?

Thanks.

Sarah Winfield

Hi Sarah

good to see you on this forum, hope your FS build is going well....since last we spoke I have actually been looking into this subject a little more, if you remember I did post an image that clearly shows some sort of fixings along the top of 4472 today. However I do not believe that these are rivets, it would be impractical to use such a method of fixing the cladding sheets together. In general cladding sheets are half sections of rolled steel sheets , naturally these have to be fixed together where they meet along the middle/top edge of the boiler. The methods for doing this I'm sure will vary but it seems most logical that short bolts either round-head or countersunk would be used.
Now whether you need to show these on a model is debatable personally i would leave then off as do most commercial models, in fact i can not think of a RTR model that shows these which is perhaps why many are not aware of their existence. If holes already there why not just lightly fill these but still leaving an impression there to represent countersunk areas.

One other point, I note that you say you are building your model during the 39-44 era.. you may wish to bring this forward to at least 1936, the reason being that 4472 changed her corridor tender to a GN type in 36 and then to a stream lined high sided in 38 which stayed with her until preservation in 63.

kind regards


Pete

edit:.. hmm sorry for some reason I sent a copy via PM by mistake.. probably pressed the wrong tab or something.. thought i had lost it until finding it in my outbox...must be getting old...lol

Thank you for your reply.

Now I have a dilemma. I would rather not attempt to fill the holes for fear of damaging the finish.

So I may just use some rivets I have to fill the holes and have a row of rivet heads anyway.

Sarah Winfield

I think if it was me I'd just use something like a PVA glue.. there's a good glue used by model aircraft builders ( sorry can't remember the name) for sticking the cockpit canopies that would be perfect although you may find normal PVA will do just as well. The point is the holes are very small... put a drop of PVA into each hole and wipe any excess away with a damp cloth, the result would be perfectly filled holes with a slight depression.. no sanding down required.

Pete

Sara, Peter,

I have just spent the morning searching for a picture of an A1/3 on Bottom Shed turntable that shows the top of the boiler. Cant find it at the moment. however i am sure that looking at other,but not as detailed pics, that the cladding sheets are rolled and joined at the bottom of the boiler, and there are no indentations/rivets to be seen. Should I or someone else on the forum lay a hand on it i am sure it will pop up on here. IIRC it was in a sequence of pics showing the engine being turned

Hi Silverfox

I'd certainly be interested in seeing pictures of how cladding was fixed in the day, from what I have found for current practise each section is in two halves and joined at the top.. not sure about what happens at the bottom, perhaps the bands hold all in place which would make more sense to me when considering how much a boiler expands by. Now when it comes to large steam models yes the general practise is to roll a complete section, pull it open and secure along the bottom edge but I'm not sure that this is so easy when dealing with full size, the force required to open up the section to fit over the boiler may be a little problematic in operation and for general maintenance. I have no doubt that today 4472 has a row of fastenings along the top of the boiler, exactly what type I do not know, perhaps it is that in olden days past cladding was in complete sections, pulled open by some apparatus and fixed along the bottom? I find it difficult to accept that this is the case due to the difficulties that this involves in both fitting and for general maintenance, however I'd be very happy to hear that this indeed was the case, I prefer the clean lined look of no fastenings along the top/middle of boilers as that's what i grew up believing...

Regards


Pete

I am also building a Hachette Scotsman. I too pondered the rivets along the top. I think at this scale the fixings would not be as prominent as the kit suggests. I simply filled them with filler and gently sanded them flat. Through the first primer coat of paint you can just make out the faint outline of them. This I think is far more effective than using wire or rivets.

At the Warley show this last weekend Bachmann had some O gauge A3 tenders for sale at £35 each. It might be worth contacting them if you want to change your corridor tender for a non corridor one suitable for the later period you plan to model.

On several locos I have worked on (not LNE) the boiler cladding/clothing is in two rolled "halves',,overlapping by approx two inches top and bottom, over a strip metal crinoline, and rockwool lagging- (nowadays non toxic,not heritage insulation material of a delicate colour is used). Bear in mind a half sheet can be upto 9ft by 5ft in size. The sheets are either held in position by bands, which cover the joints between adjacent sheets,and can be adjusted for tightness,to retain the sheets,or as on most locos , 1/2 inch hex bolts /round top screws to secure the sheets to the crinoline.Bolts would permit removal of sections to access ,for example,leaking stays or concealed pipe unions.The joint line along boiler top,often criticised and removed from plastic models,is quite prototypical.

Thank you ten ten that makes complete sense to me. I was hoping someone with full size experience would chip in, I just couldn't see how one piece could work, look nice yes but when considering the size of a boiler like 4472 each section would be enormous. I do recall seeing a picture of a full section of cladding being lowered onto a boiler with chain and tackle, however iirc it was the firebox piece and thus didn't need pulling open to fit, whether it was made of one piece or two pieces already bolted together I have no idea but I do suspect for reasons already discussed and with what's involved in rolling steel it would have been of two pieces.

I'll still do my 5" gauge as one piece for each section though.. looks nicer and although not easy it is possible to pull the bottoms open to fit...

Kind regards

Pete

Hello Sarah,

I hope this photo of Flying Scotsman at York in 2012 is of assistance. Not many obvious rivets!

Hi Sarah,

I'm fairly sure that this topic has been covered before and, IIRC, there will be some stuff on it on Rob Pulham's thread.

Regards,

Vernon

ps I thought the preserved FS is fitted with an A4 boiler?

Hi notascoobie

scotsman now has the spare a3 boiler that came with her when alan peglar first bought her from BR. The a4 boiler was sold as a spare for one of the a4's (maybe bittern) and las i heard was at crewe.

I think we've been trolled!

After all the effort put into responding, a "Thank You" from "Sarah" (?) would be appreciated.

I think she may have simply forgotton. She is pretty active on the Gauge O guild forum and judging by her posts on there would not ignore deliberatly. It can be quite difficult to remember all the places you have posted to. I know I certainly forget! She did actually thank the original reply.