The LNER Encyclopedia

I'm on the final stages of a J21 build/rebuild. My prototype is 5033 in 1947 condition (see Yeadon Vol47A - page 59)
If my view of the photograph is correct, the tender brake rigging is inside the wheels. At a later time, this locomotive both under BR and preservation was equipped with a tender with brake rigging which shows a shallow diagonal angle outside the centre and leading wheelsets. Most J21s show this tender rigging in 1946/47 views .

According to NERA Express Vol 52 No 211 for August 2013, the diagonal rigging was fitted from 1906 onwards.

Does this mean that some tenders were not re-fitted under the NER/LNER?
Or am I just misreading the photograph?

I would be very grateful if someone could tell me about the practice of Darlington/Gateshead works in this regard.

(It took me ages to get the locomotive external rigging done - so it would really be quite a relief if the tender was simpler!)

G'day all
There's a 1960 pic of 65033 in RCTS vol 5 with the rodding outside the wheels.
I imagine the 1906 date for changeover to diagonal rodding referred to new tenders and existing tenders were only fitted with new rodding if it needed replacement. The LNER never had a lot of spare cash to make wholesale changes like another railway.
I haven't got the Yeadon for the J21's, but they usually have changes of tender noted. Then it would be checking to find where the tender came from/ended up, and seeing if there's another pic of 65033's tender coupled to some other loco.
It's a tedious job making and fitting outside brake rodding. A lot old GNR tenders had outside rigging and making it is a job that it's best to do without.
Earlswood nob

Easier for NER tenders still abit fiddly though

http://52fmodels.sharepoint.com/Pages/NERTender.aspx

Afternoon all
I answered above without thinking that the W1 tender that I'm building has outside brake rodding.
I now use Morgan Gilbert's method of using tubes with brass wire inside which gives the correct spacing to line the shoes up to the wheel tread, and then fixing with black nail varnish (or other colour if you prefer).
Earlswood nob

There's a 1960 pic of 65033 in RCTS vol 5 with the rodding outside the wheels.
I imagine the 1906 date for changeover to diagonal rodding referred to new tenders and existing tenders were only fitted with new rodding if it needed replacement. The LNER never had a lot of spare cash to make wholesale changes like another railway.
I haven't got the Yeadon for the J21's, but they usually have changes of tender noted. Then it would be checking to find where the tender came from/ended up, and seeing if there's another pic of 65033's tender coupled to some other loco.
It's a tedious job making and fitting outside brake rodding. A lot old GNR tenders had outside rigging and making it is a job that it's best to do without.
Earlswood nob

Thank you for your reply, but as I said I'm modelling 5033 in 1946/7 condition, and the tender was clearly changed between then and 1960. Yeadon Vol 47A doesn't give details of tender changes. The photograph I refer to does not appear to show outside rodding, but since most other photographs of other J21s in the same time period do so then I would like to check that's it not just my eyes! You are surely right in saying that the LNER did not do work it didn't need to.

Yes, the outside rodding for the locomotive was really tricky, so I'll be happy to avoid it on the tender.

There are a number of other differences between this loco in 46/47 and as running under BR and as preserved, including the extended smokebox and Westinghouse brake. The class lasted such a long time that after 50 years there a number of detail differences. That's why I'm modelling a particular loco!

Afternoon everyone
I think the J21 was one of the great loco classes of the NER and LNER. They were the mainstay of many branches, and were more successful over Stainmore summit than many other classes. However, with over 200 locos in the class and surviving as long as they did, there must be a multitude of variations.
65033 must be unusual, a superheated loco reverting to saturated, but goes to show that there is a precedent for many unusual things.
Earlswood nob

65033 must be unusual, a superheated loco reverting to saturated, but goes to show that there is a precedent for many unusual things.

Actually, quite a lot of them did, and some reverted to a short smokebox and some didn't!
The next (actually half built) model is to be a J21 with slide valves and Joy gear.

In NER days a tender was usually allocated to a particular loco and was rarely changed. The LNER changed that and tenders were commonly switched. This was one of the reasons that the loco numbers were moved to the cab sides. The early 3038 Gallon tenders all had inside brake rigging. Even the more modern of the NER stock, many of the J26s, had this style. Later tenders changed to outside rigging. I believe that all the tenders with oval frame cut-outs (as opposed to the semi-circular ones) had the outside rigging. Over the years so many were switched between locos that it is impossible to predict what type a particular engine would be coupled to. The only true guide is a dated photograph.

65033 (Ex. 876) in preservation at Beamish was running with outside rigging and was then saturated. This is its 'as withdrawn' condition. Many Ex NER 0-6-0s lost there superheaters in their later days. Only one J27 retained its superheater 'til the end (65880).

Getting back to 65033, it was certainly superheated in 1946/47 and ran with a tender with inside rigging.

ArthurK

Good morning from a sunny but cold Surrey
I am enjoying the increase in my information about J21's.
Did the Joy valve gear engiones have visual differences apart from the valve covers under the smokebox door?
It's looking like I shall have to buy the relevant volume of Yeadon's register. Is the J25 in the same volume?
Earlswood nob

earlswood nob wrote:Good morning from a sunny but cold Surrey
I am enjoying the increase in my information about J21's.
Did the Joy valve gear engiones have visual differences apart from the valve covers under the smokebox door?
It's looking like I shall have to buy the relevant volume of Yeadon's register. Is the J25 in the same volume?
Earlswood nob

The radius rods (if that is the correct name when the engine has Joy Gear) were visible above footplate level as was the Joy mechanism its self. Not well up on this gear. I don't know the proper names.

Sorry J21 and J25 are in separate volumes of Yeadon's.

ArthuK

Getting back to 65033, it was certainly superheated in 1946/47 and ran with a tender with inside rigging.

Thank you ArthurK. I've checked every source I have access to, (RCTS and Yeadon + others) for my two J21 projects. I hope to have 5033 finished soon, and will update my thread under modelling. My representation of 5033 has a partial simulation of working Stephenson valve gear, with the forward extension straps, lifting links, connecting rods and crossheads all moving. You have to look closely, but it's quite rewarding to see it in motion!

I have in progress a further J21 which will have slide valves and Joy gear, and more of this will be visible in motion than with the Stephenson gear.