LNER Buffet Car Conversions

[notascoobie]

Good afternoon,

I was idly flicking through a book when I saw a photo of an "LNER Buffet Car Interior." I have attached a rather poor scan.

[The extension bmp has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

Now I've looked at the photo before and not really thought about what I was looking at. This time though it struck me that the buffet bar was the "wrong way round" to other LNER ones I've seen. Then I noticed the clerestory ceiling (true clerestory or mock?) and the heavy window framing. I began to wonder whether this was one of the early buffet car conversions in 1932 from GNR Open Thirds. However, those Open Thirds appear to have had more modern window frames. I'm wondering whether this was a conversion from an earlier GNR or ECJS carriage.

Can anyone solve the mystery for me please?

Regards,

Vernon

[sawdust]

That style of ceiling looks the same as in the centre salon of GN saloon (former invalid saloon) 3087.

Sawdust.

[2512silverfox]

Probably 43136. Originally converted for the Cambridge 'Beer' trains.

[notascoobie]

Probably 43136. Originally converted for the Cambridge 'Beer' trains.

Hi SF thanks for your posting.

There's a photo of JS Dia 9 in Harris' GNR & ECJS Carriages (plate 63). The windows of the rebuilt carriage are much wider than those shown in the photo above. Accordingly I discounted those carriages.

The closely spaced small windows point towards an earlier design of carriage. Of course, it's entirely possible that the photo might be of an entirely different origin, but the, possibly faux, clerestory finish looks like those fitted to other types of GNR carriage.

A conundrum to me. But then again, I'm no expert so I'm easily confused.

Regards,

Vernon

[Bill Bedford]

It is the interior of one of the GN buffet conversions, which became diagrams 78T and 78V.

[notascoobie]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for that.

My copy of Harris' ECJS & GN carriages book shows a copy of Dia 78V (page 74) and states that 78T was very similar with only a slightly longer buffet counter. The buffet counter is on the opposite side of the carriage in the diagram compared to the photo and the wide windows of the diagram do not match the narrow windows of the photo. These observations are matched by exterior and interior photos of the conversions shown in Harris (plates 63 and 64).

I don't think that photo is of those conversions so I'm still scratching my head..... unless you caan see where I've gone wrong?

Regards,

Vernon

[UpDistant]

Vernon

Can you see any writing on the original photo in your book? There is always the possibilty that the photo has been printed back to front which would explain why the buffet counter is on the wrong side of the carriage.

John

[notascoobie]

Hi John,

Thanks for that. I had checked already - you can clearly read the posters etc on the original.

Regards,

Vernon

[Bill Bedford]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for that.

My copy of Harris' ECJS & GN carriages book shows a copy of Dia 78V (page 74) and states that 78T was very similar with only a slightly longer buffet counter. The buffet counter is on the opposite side of the carriage in the diagram compared to the photo and the wide windows of the diagram do not match the narrow windows of the photo. These observations are matched by exterior and interior photos of the conversions shown in Harris (plates 63 and 64).

There were two GN diagrams converted to buffet cars:
GN 248A Open thirds Nos 41577/651 in 1935
GN 229 Open Thirds Nos 43130/1 in 1931/6

248A was a standard TO, on a 58' frame with doors, at the ends, but the diagram is endorsed 'fitted with half drop lights' and there are narrow pillars drawn in on some of the large windows. 229 was on a 51' frame and had four doors per side, with droplights in the intermediate bays. The diagram is endorsed 'Cantrail Ventilation' which would explain the clerestory like ceiling in your photo. My guess is that the photo shows the original conversion of one of the 229 TOs in 1931. I also suspect that these became diagrams 78U and 78S respectively but I would need confirmation of that.

[notascoobie]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for that. I think you've cracked it there. I guess I assumed the Open Third conversions were of a common style .....don't assume - check!

Regards,

Vernon

[2512silverfox]

I agree with Bill and would suggest that it is either 43130 or 43131 which were both converted from Dia 229 TOs to Buffet Cars as GN Diagram 78s. The interesting thing is that my copy of Dia 78s is annotated 'To be reconverted to Open 3rds as Dia 229'. The date is not given but it was certainly pre-war and probably when the new standard Buffet cars came on stream.