Toad D Danglings

[notascoobie]

Good Evening,

I'm in the throes of building a fitted LNER Toad D in 7mm scale from a Slater's kit. The kit requires a bit of chopping to turn back the clock and I've hacked off the trusses and I've installed a brake cylinder and vee-hangers. What I'm scratching my head over is the rigging for the brakes. It is surely similar to the rigging of the piped and unfitted BR descendents? Except I can't work out how the vacuum is incorporated in the unfitted arrangement.

Can any kind soul please point me towards a brake rigging diagram for these fitted vehicles? I've looked in the places I can think of without success, but I'm sure that someone can locate the required information.......... probably right under my nose in the first place I should have looked!

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Vernon

[1H was 2E]

May I just point out that, in my own experience in the 70's, fitted brake vans were rare, most of the bauxite ones being vac piped. Fitted ones were required when a (at least partially fitted) train had to be marshalled with a brake van at each end to make reversal en route possible. I recall it was quite difficult to track ones down for this purpose. Otherwise it seems the practice was to allow the guard to brake the van itself. P.S. Toad is the telegraphic code for a brake van - did any operating railwayman ever use the term? (they were BROs on the dreaded LMR).

[StevieG]

" .... P.S. Toad is the telegraphic code for a brake van - did any operating railwayman ever use the term? (they were BROs on the dreaded LMR). "

I'm no expert in this, but BRO sounds like one of the three letter codes which came in at about the same time as (and very possibly for) the early 1970s adoption by BR from the USA of TOPS (Total Operations Processing System) as a wagon and freight train consignment & consist control system.
On BR, in those codes, a couple of first character examples were (are?) 'V' for a goods van and 'H' for hopper wagon, so 'B' was probably a brake van.
And third character examples for being brake fitted were (logically) 'V' for vacuum and 'A' for Air braked, and I think 'O' was for (through-)piped only.

So pre-TOPS, and probably for a long time after amongst long-serving staff, I suspect that a 'TOAD' would've been a TOAD, much as so many other, mostly (but not all) marine-related vehicle names (many for engineering train vehicles) seemed to continue in use (even officially in weekly 'ballast' [engineering] train notices) right into the 1980s at least.

[StevieG]

....... Found in : -
- "B.R. 87222/5"
"Supplement No. 1"
"July, 1960"
to "Standard Codes for Telegrams dated 1st July 1958" :

TOAD - Brake van - Freight train brake van
TOADFIT - Brake van - Freight train brake van V.B. or V.P. (presumably Vacuum Braked and Vacuum Piped.)

[cambois]

In TOPS the O code was unbraked and the P vacuum piped. X was dual braked. There was a code for air braked vac piped (for Ferry wagons) but I cannot remember it at the moment. Maybe W?

[1H was 2E]

I'm pretty sure BRO dated back to the LMS and was certainly pre TOPS. TOPS code for a brake van was originally CAB (born in the USA - short for caboose) though later the 3rd letter defined the brake type, like all other codes. Before TOPS 3 letter codes ( in BR days at least) fitted and piped wagons were distinguished by colour coding - red or white - on the stand pipe.
The engineers wagons' codes appeared in the telegraph code book and were painted on the wagons, but I'm pretty certain that 'TOAD' was never painted on a brake van.

[65447]

Can any kind soul please point me towards a brake rigging diagram for these fitted vehicles? I've looked in the places I can think of without success, but I'm sure that someone can locate the required information.......... probably right under my nose in the first place I should have looked!

Not a detailed diagram I'm afraid but the bottom photograph on the front of the re-issued LNER Wagons by Peter Tatlow is an official view (103/837) and there are others inside on pp168-9, including a diagram with the brake gear as a schematic outline. The brake rigging and vacuum cylinder are quite clear in these, probably sufficiently so to help you work it out.

By the way as you are regressing the kit, while the Slater's instructions are quite specific on the various changes in the position and number of lamp brackets, you will see from the photographs mentioned above that the LNER end doors were in general solid vertical planking and that the side lights each comprised 2 vertical panes. Later builds had the 2 vertical lights inserted in the door, but it was not until the BR standard builds that the door lights had the horizontal rails dividing them into 4 panes.

The diagram in the Tatlow book also shows the position of the sanding gear, only fitted to the early builds and soon removed.

Edit: I've now dug out my copy of the Slater's instructions, and the etch with the brake gear components on it and its use as a template for the plastikard under-plate are really not very helpful for regression to LNER original fitted condition - good luck with it and I'd like to see a photograph of the finished underside (and indeed the whole van)!

[65447]

May I just point out that, in my own experience in the 70's, fitted brake vans were rare, most of the bauxite ones being vac piped. Fitted ones were required when a (at least partially fitted) train had to be marshalled with a brake van at each end to make reversal en route possible. I recall it was quite difficult to track ones down for this purpose. Otherwise it seems the practice was to allow the guard to brake the van itself. P.S. Toad is the telegraphic code for a brake van - did any operating railwayman ever use the term? (they were BROs on the dreaded LMR).

But under the LNER these vans were almost all fully fitted, being intended specifically for the fast fitted freight workings (e.g. 'Green Arrow'); only some built for the CLC were hand-brake only.

[notascoobie]

Can any kind soul please point me towards a brake rigging diagram for these fitted vehicles? I've looked in the places I can think of without success, but I'm sure that someone can locate the required information.......... probably right under my nose in the first place I should have looked!

Not a detailed diagram I'm afraid but the bottom photograph on the front of the re-issued LNER Wagons by Peter Tatlow is an official view (103/837) and there are others inside on pp168-9, including a diagram with the brake gear as a schematic outline. The brake rigging and vacuum cylinder are quite clear in these, probably sufficiently so to help you work it out.

By the way as you are regressing the kit, while the Slater's instructions are quite specific on the various changes in the position and number of lamp brackets, you will see from the photographs mentioned above that the LNER end doors were in general solid vertical planking and that the side lights each comprised 2 vertical panes. Later builds had the 2 vertical lights inserted in the door, but it was not until the BR standard builds that the door lights had the horizontal rails dividing them into 4 panes.

The diagram in the Tatlow book also shows the position of the sanding gear, only fitted to the early builds and soon removed.

Edit: I've now dug out my copy of the Slater's instructions, and the etch with the brake gear components on it and its use as a template for the plastikard under-plate are really not very helpful for regression to LNER original fitted condition - good luck with it and I'd like to see a photograph of the finished underside (and indeed the whole van)!

Hi 6547,

Thanks for your contribution. Tatlow is the only source of info I've found to date.

I have already replaced the door with a planked one from plasticard and I've removed the window bars since the reveals are far too deep. I'll replace the window bars with thinner plasticard vertical ones when I'm glazing the vehicle. As to the brakes, I can see how the vacuum cylinder is fitted but I can't see how it's connected to the rest of the brake gear and to the Guard's brake column inside the vehicle. I think I'll just put in a general representation - if I find out more later I'll have to update the model. Happily it's all well hidden!

Regards,

Vernon

[D2100]

May I just point out that, in my own experience in the 70's, fitted brake vans were rare, most of the bauxite ones being vac piped. .

But under the LNER these vans were almost all fully fitted, being intended specifically for the fast fitted freight workings (e.g. 'Green Arrow'); only some built for the CLC were hand-brake only.

Both fair points, but need to be read together to get the full picture. As Mike says, pukka LNER 'long' Toads were almost exclusively fully fitted, whereas BR built fitted, piped and unfitted examples under its diagrams 1/504, 1/506 and 1/507. The fully fitted BR builds were not common, but there were more of them than was once supposed.

[notascoobie]

May I just point out that, in my own experience in the 70's, fitted brake vans were rare, most of the bauxite ones being vac piped. .

But under the LNER these vans were almost all fully fitted, being intended specifically for the fast fitted freight workings (e.g. 'Green Arrow'); only some built for the CLC were hand-brake only.

Both fair points, but need to be read together to get the full picture. As Mike says, pukka LNER 'long' Toads were almost exclusively fully fitted, whereas BR built fitted, piped and unfitted examples under its diagrams 1/504, 1/506 and 1/507. The fully fitted BR builds were not common, but there were more of them than was once supposed.

That's why there's plenty to do to turn back the clock with the Slater's kit! The bit of 7mm modelling I'm doing is firmly LNER pre-war, so there would not be unfitted ones about.

Good this modelling stuff isn't it?

Regards,

Vernon

[Bryan]

Not knowing much on the modelling front but actively involved in full size vehicles.
Is this the type of BV you mean. NYMR Brake van 246710 built 1941?

If yes and you reply, letting me know which bits you are interested in before 08.00 Thursday morning I will endeavour to get some photos of the bits you need.
I will be at Newbridge yard tomorrow at some point and if the van is in the yard I will get them.

[65447]

Bryan,

I'm as interested as Vernon in understanding how the brake rigging fits together on the fitted vans, and especially how both the vac cylinder and handbrake are connected to the pull rods (or not as the case may be).

Look forward to your photographs.

Any chance of interior views too, especially of the handbrake, and vac pipe, valve and gauge?

[StevieG]

In TOPS the O code was unbraked and the P vacuum piped. X was dual braked. There was a code for air braked vac piped (for Ferry wagons) but I cannot remember it at the moment. Maybe W?

Referring briefly back to the code issue, thanks for correcting my dodgy memory cambois : Seems to explain why a fitted 'TOAD' was officially coded as TOADFIT.

[notascoobie]

Bryan,

Thank you for your kind offer. The photo shows a slightly later version than I'm modelling, however I doubt the brake rigging is different. Just like 65447 I'd be really keen to see photographs taken underneath showing the brake rigging and especially the way that the vacuum gear links to the Guard's brake. A view taken from each side at solebar level would be good. I'd also like to have a peek indoors please.

Anything you can do would be greatly appreciated.

I look forward to seing what you come up with.

Many thanks.

Regards,

Vernon

(Further construction currently on "hold")