North British Railway Carriages

[UpDistant]

The North British Railway Study Group website has a list of carriages and NPCCS giving NBR diagram numbers, LNER diagram numbers and the leading dimensions along with carriage numbers where known. There is, unfortunately, no list of numbers allocated under the LNER 1923 scheme. Whereas most Third class coaches (including Brake ends) were renumbered by adding a '3' in front of the NBR number to denote the Southern Scottish Area, Firsts and Composites appear to have been renumbered into 30xxx, 31xxx, or 32xxx blocks, e.g. LNER Dia 77B 58'4" Luggage Composite No. 58 was renumbered as 32325.

Although the number of coaches isn't large, the SSA being equiped fairly early in the LNERs existence with standard Gresley non-vestibule stock, has anyone any LNER renumbering details for the NBR stock, particularly the 8-wheel bogie NV stock?

They were also becoming thin on the ground by the early 1950s but here is one on the Border Counties line in 1953 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswiss ... 1842684795.

As far as I know, there are no kits, sides or otherwise available, although Historic Carriage Drawings Volume 1 has some of the NV stock.

Any information will be gratefully received.

[John Palmer]

What a great set of photographs from the area of the BCR! I assume that luggage composite on the train at Falstone has luggage compartments at the both ends of the vehicle, and that this is a Holmes design?

I can't help with numbers, but for model sources you may find http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/4mm/4mm_LNER_Pregroup.htm helps. No diagram numbers given, but the 58' Luggage Composite kit looks as though it may well be to LNER Diag 77B.

Provided someone could convince me a Diag 77B was operated over the Mallaig Extension during the 30's, I couldn't resist the offer of one in model form. A most attractive vehicle.

[Bill Bedford]

There are a number of NB coaches listed here

[UpDistant]

Thanks John and Bill for the information regarding modelling options.

As is so often the case, the more you dig the more confusing things become. I recall talking to Dave Dunn a couple of years ago just as a start was being made on digitising the JW Armstrong collection and if I remember correctly, the resolution was 4000 dpi. Try setting the image size to Large 1600 then adjust the zoom on your browser screen to 300%.

Now things are clearer, the murk deepens - the train consists of a standard Newcastle division B set (made up BT(3) - CL(3:4) - BT(4)) at the rear, 2nd carriage is ex-NER all toplight T(8) I think to Dia 148 or 149. Now because the Gresleys are all 51' and the ex-NER is 49', the first coach would really stick out as being quite long if it was a Luggage Compo to Dia 77B at 58'4". The NBRSG notes for this diagram has 5 Firsts and 3 Thirds and this matches the description in Nick Campling's book. However, the drawing for Diagram 77B does not match the photograph - the photograph appears to have Luggage compartments at both end, the drawing has one at the Third class end. The drawing has evenly sized panels between the compartments, whereas the photograph has (from the front) Luggage double doors, door, wide panel, door, small panel, door, wide panel, door, small panel, door, small panel, luggage double doors. The number of ventilators also suggests 7 compartments between the luggage compartments; are the large panels toilets? Were any Dia 77B altered as such?

See what I mean about confusing.

[John Palmer]

This is quite a puzzle.

I take it that your reference to Nick Campling's book is to Historic Carriage Drawings Vol.1. I don't have this particular work, having instead purchased the original 'HCD' by Campling and Jenkinson shortly after it was published in 1969. (I see that the price of mine had gone up from £2.10 to £2.50 – daylight robbery!) I believe the multi-volume reprint includes a number of additional drawings, but I suspect the particular drawing to which you are referring appears in both works, and is the drawing by Iain R. Smith of No.32439. Since my original version of 'HCD' doesn't give a diagram number for this coach I had not realised it was intended to be Dia.77B, but I agree that the drawing and the description in the NBRSG Carriage Diagram List neatly correspond.

In that case I don't think the coach shown in the train at Falstone is to Dia.77B. What's more, I think the Falstone coach is likely to be sitting on a 49' underframe rather than one of 58' length. I arrive at that conclusion in following way:

I see 5 compartments, 2 lavatories (each with a ventilator bonnet over their window), and 2 luggage lockers. Broadly speaking, NBR 1st class compartments are 7' wide whilst 3rd class are about 6'. Since we can’t see class designations I have taken the average of 6'6", giving a total length for compartments of 32'6". Lavatories on NBR non-vestibuled stock are about 2'8" wide (say 2.75 feet) giving 5.5 feet for these. The luggage locker on Iain Smith's Dia.77B drawing is about 4'6" wide, so two of these account for a further 9 feet. Add these up and you get an aggregate of 47 feet. This is still two feet short for a 49 foot underframe, but note that between the two compartments in the middle of the coach and beneath the destination board clips on the vehicle side there is an additional panel (possibly concealing an internal void) which might account for the missing length.

So what vehicle might this be? Looking through the NBRSG diagram list, I cannot find any 8 wheel carriages having 5 compartments other than brake vehicles – which this is not. There appear to be no obvious candidates in the list, so I have no clue as to what it might be.

Is it necessary to consider whether this coach had its origin on some railway other than the North British?

[Bill Bedford]

1/ It is not North British -- It has plate bogies, not Fox's; It has continuous cantrail panels instead on them being interrupted by the panels between the windows.

2/ It is a slip brake -- Compartments with double doors at each end; three panels arranged vertically on the ends which suggests there are end windows hidden by the tender.

I would suggest this is a GCR Diagram 4J3 slip brake built 1905.

[John Palmer]

Bill, I think you may well be right about this being a GCR vehicle. At http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/smjsa52a.htm is shown part of a GCR vehicle having considerable design similarities to the coach at Falstone. But I know virtually nothing about GCR stock - can you elaborate upon why you think this is a Dia.4J3 slip brake? Are there any online images or drawings that would assist identification?

One of the advantages of such a high resolution photograph as the Falstone shot is that it permits examination of detail to an extent not usually possible. Although this has absolutely nothing to to with NBR carriages, I was fascinated to note that the rod run visible consists of two runs of 'U' shaped channel on the left and a single run of round rodding to the detector - I've never before seen such a mix of rodding on a common set of stools.

[watcheronthebridge]

There was a GCR Stratford-on-Avon slip coach service. The coach was slipped from northbound trains at Woodford and forwarded by a local train to Stratford. The photograph on the Warwickshire railways site seems to show the return working of this coach. This slip coach was suspended on the eve of WW1 and not reinstated until the early 1920s. It continued to be operated by the LNER until the accident at Woodford just before Christmas 1935 ended not only this slip coach but the other slip services that still lingered on the LNER. This would explain why after 1935 the ex-GCR slip coaches would have been redeployed to ordinary services, including elsewhere on the system.

[UpDistant]

Bill, thanks for the information.

I think it was the style of ventilator which pushed me in the NB direction, although similar ones could be found on GE and GNoS coaches as well. Although the Border Counties line was predominantly in the NEA, it was worked by the SSA which also had responsibility for the Wansbeck and Rothbury branches. There is a photo in Banks and Carter (p93) showing a through carriage - NB 58' BCL(2:4) - from Newcastle, leaving Scotsgap on the Morpeth-Rothbury leg, the difference in length between the NB coach and the 51' Gresley T(8) being quite apparent. This NB coach did not last until the end of passenger services in 1952, being replaced by another mystery coach (photos in Oakwood Press - The Rothbury Branch) - another BC or BCL but with flush side panels, brake end with, what should be, distinctive window frames, and those similar half round door ventilators.

NB coaches seem to quite rare by the early 1950s, most of the oddities on the BCR are of GN origin, including articulated twins, this GC coach adds another one off.

My initial query about NB coach numbering may, in fact, now be irrelevant from a modelling point of view.

[Bill Bedford]

But I know virtually nothing about GCR stock - can you elaborate upon why you think this is a Dia.4J3 slip brake? Are there any online images or drawings that would assist identification?

There were four diagrams of GC slips. Diags 4J1, 4J2, 4J3, 4J4 all with different body styles. A diagram of 4J1 is in Dow's Great Central Vol2, while 4J2 and 4J4 are in Vol3. The one in the photo is not any of the above so it must be 4J3.

[Bill Bedford]

There was a GCR Stratford-on-Avon slip coach service. The coach was slipped from northbound trains at Woodford and forwarded by a local train to Stratford. The photograph on the Warwickshire railways site seems to show the return working of this coach. This slip coach was suspended on the eve of WW1 and not reinstated until the early 1920s. It continued to be operated by the LNER until the accident at Woodford just before Christmas 1935 ended not only this slip coach but the other slip services that still lingered on the LNER. This would explain why after 1935 the ex-GCR slip coaches would have been redeployed to ordinary services, including elsewhere on the system.

There were four GC through coaches to Stratford-upon-Avon per day, only one, the 6:20 pm ex-Marylebone employed a slip. Rather than being an especial quick way of getting to Stratford, the SMJR train took all of 50 minutes to pick up the slip coach from Woodford. However the 6:20 pm also slipped another coach at Finmere. This later was use by a number of city gents including one of the LNER's directors, Colonel Trotter.

[John Palmer]

Excellent; thanks, Bill.

[UpDistant]

OK then, back to the NB stuff.

Given that the NB was "squeezed out" (for want of a less polite expression) by the NE and GN influence after the Grouping, no further builds of NB locos, no NB carriages (NE designed carriages built until Gresley standard stock), and very little apart from some 7-plank minerals wagon-wise, did any NB carriages make it through to Nationalisation, service stock excepted?

In one of my previous posts, I mentioned that the Border Counties, Wansbeck and Rothbury lines, although in the NEA were worked by the SSA or as far as the ex-North Eastern allowed. The stock was ex-NE but the SSA resisted NE locos despite the NE attempting to foist D20
4-4-0s onto them, various classes of ex-NB 4-4-0s being the norm. The ex-NB locos at Reedmouth and Rothbury sheds were eventually replaced by NE types, and the end came for the D30s on the line after the 1955 repairs to the bridge at Border Counties Junction (west of Hexham) which resulted in clearance problems for the class. After that, anything suitable was used.

[Bill Bedford]

Given that the NB was "squeezed out" (for want of a less polite expression) by the NE and GN influence after the Grouping, no further builds of NB locos, no NB carriages (NE designed carriages built until Gresley standard stock), and very little apart from some 7-plank minerals wagon-wise, did any NB carriages make it through to Nationalisation, service stock excepted?

Oh yes. I have more photos of NB carriages in BR red and white livery than stock from any other pre-grouping company. I believe that the NB was one of the few pre-grouping companies to renew their mainline stock in the years before the grouping.

[65447]

Given that the NB was "squeezed out" (for want of a less polite expression) by the NE and GN influence after the Grouping, no further builds of NB locos, no NB carriages (NE designed carriages built until Gresley standard stock), and very little apart from some 7-plank minerals wagon-wise, did any NB carriages make it through to Nationalisation, service stock excepted?

An aside in a sense, but once any form of rearrangement of the railway companies was definitely on the cards the canny NB board ceased to expend any further capital on new or replacement stock, locomotive or rolling.