The LNER Encyclopedia

G'Day Gents

I have a Bachmann K3, in BR livery, which I'm in the process of backdating to LNER livery, in the process I'll be renumbering it, I was going to number it in the double digit (ie 61 etc) but on checking some of the pictures I have, I noticed that they all seem to have GS flare sided tenders, did any of these low numbered K3's have flush sided (Bachmann type tenders)

Thank you

Manna

PS One day I might fit a GN type to a K3

Good morning Manna
I, too, like the two and three digit numbers on locos. One of the first kits, I built was a Wills K3 which I happily adorned with number 17. I soon learned to research prototypes and find a photo of the loco. No 17 has been in the cupboard for many years awaiting a rebuild (it was glued together) and repaint.
The first two post-grouping K3's (17 and 28) were coupled to GN tenders, before being given tenders with stepped out coping from J38's, and the rest of the 1924-5 series were coupled to GS tenders with stepped out coping as built. The flush sided tenders started with 1300 in 1929.
There is also the variation of cabs. The original cabs on 17 to 134 had lower windows with a handrail above the windows. These were changed in the late 1920's.
The present SE Finecast K3 have an etch containing the different cabs, and also additional stepped out coping plates to modify the tender. I obtained one in a job lot of locos at auction, and I propose builing it with the GN cab and using the tender from a Kays J3 which was wrong for the model.

I recently read of Clayton and Sentinel railcars on the Edgware branch. You seem to have a multitude of classes to run on your railway.

Earlswood Nob

G'Day Gents

And a good morning to EN, interesting about the K3 tenders, 1300 sounds ok, any idea where it was based, I wouldn't think many Scottish based K3's would get to Edgware !!

Sentinel's I did know about, Rising Sun, was a regular for about a year, but a Clayton, that's new I've just started to build Rising Sun............out of an old Hornby brake coach, it's the same size.

manna

Manna I will look in my book for single or double digit K3s with GNR tender stationed south of Watford Gap when I return home this evening. I have the K3 Locomotives Illustrated and it gives a good selection of dates and allocations.

Good morning Manna
The K3 numbered 1300 was fitted with Westinghouse brakes and intended for the ex-NER. No 1100 is the lowest I've spotted that had vacuum brakes and intended for the Southern area.
The Clayton railcar "Chevy Chase" worked the Edgware branch for a short while before being replaced by Sentinel "Rising Sun".
Earlswood Nob

G'Day Gents

Thank you Gentlemen. 52D, flat sided tenders first ,please.

EN, Chevy Chase, Hmmmm, very interesting, didn't know they named a rail-car after an American comedian

manna

Oi my Antipodean mucker Chevy Chase was a Battle in Northumberland during the Border Wars. Just about to open the K3 book. Disaster the book does not distinguish the tenders or first shed it only gives allocations in 1950, 1957 and shed at withdrawl but fear not I will look at pics in the book and also in my 2-6-0s of the LNER book to try and sort something for you.

Manna,

For future reference on your project... there is a Pamlin Postcard print No M3215 this shows a front 3/4 view of K2 4649 (card states 4648 but the last digit is partly masked by buffer head), the view is at Edgware on 5.6.1937 and is by H C Casserley. The 1st coach is a Howlden Brake but probably part of an articulated set.

Steve

G'Day Gents

Wouldn't be this one by any chance, brilliant shot, there are very few pictures of tender locos on the Edgware branch, most of them are of N2's, Thank you.

manna

PS, notice what the caption says

Yes it is... glad you have it and I'm not suprised ( re the caption)
Steve

Good morning all
One other thought Manna, LNER tenders after 1928/9 were built with disc wheels. One of the P2's had spoked wheels, but that is the only exception that I know.
Earlswood Nob

Hello folks

Per Yeadon's Register Volume 8 on the K3.

No 1300 (1870/61870):

Two photographs, Doncaster Works (1929) with Westinghouse pump and flush sided group standard 4200 gallon tender and Darlington post-March 1932 without Westinghouse pump but still with a flush sided group standard 4200 gallon tender.

Yeadon's says:

"Because both types (4200 gallon group standard) were readily exchangeable engines were photographed at some date with one type, and then with the other sooner or later."

"Three distinct types (of tenders) were coupled with them. Indeed, just one of the class no. 28 (1811 and 61811 later) which ran with all three types for a minimum of three years with each one. The tenders used were (1) GN std class B 3500 gallons with coal rails (2) LNER Group Std 4200 gallon with stepped top to its side panels and (3) that same design but flush sided. The latter also had a minor, but noticeable, variation in that those built from November 1937 had front plate which was appreciably higher. True to form, no. 1811 managed to acquire that variation from May 1947 and kept it to withdrawal. So, in effect, that one should really be credited with four types!"

1300 shed allocations; (20/4/29 - 12/7/62)

York (20/4/29)
Retford (19/6/38)
York (6/8/38)
Colwick (23/11/40)
Annesley (28/11/40)
Gorton (3/5/43)
Woodford (30/10/43)
Gorton (26/6/49)
Colwick (13/6/54)

1300 Renumbering:

1870 (25/3/46)
61870 (10/6/49)

The history of the LNER group "standard" tenders is a minefield for the unwary. There are the obvious differences such as stepped out or straight copings and high or low front plate. Even the "Green Books" take three and a half pages to describe them. However there are other less obvious differences. The tenders from the NB Loco Co and Armstrong Whitworth welded the coping plates so these presented a smooth appearance. The tenders from these builders (1934-1937) did not have an angle below the running plate. These were attached to K3s in the 24xx series. Add to all that, the use of long and short hangers for the axle box springs adds to the confusion.

My advice is simple. Find a photograph of the one the you want and in the time period of your model and stick with that.

There are enough differences to fill a book if anyone is up to the challenge.

ArthurK

I can well believe that the history of the LNER Group Standard tenders is a minefield for the unwary. I guess Yeadon was writing for an earlier era of modellers when he wrote; "Internal recognition of them ( LNER K3 ) led to the LNER allocating part 1 to 6 to the class, but modellers can comfortably ignore those variations." Oh!!

One can hope that a photograph of the desired locomotive is available for the specific period required, though I find books like Yeadon's Register a godsend. However, a class as large as the K3, with 193 locomotives, will surely have many that either went unrecorded or only sporadically recorded. I can remember as a teenager in the late 70s just how much it cost me to buy a ZENIT SLR camera and a used racing bicycle. The film going off to TRUPRINT and the like and the anxious wait for the results. I expect that it was even more expensive for the two generations ahead of me and I salute those who ventured far and wide at great expense in pursuit of their passion.

It's also possible that there is a cross-reference of some sort on the Isinglass drawing. John Edgson was brilliant at including this sort of information, and he also produced a separate drawing of the GS tender types, even including a note of the differences for LH and RH drive locomotives and suchlike on the flared coping type.