ECML locomotive changes in the 1930s

[Tom F]

Hello all
By 1959 I'm interested to if there was a strict rule where trains changed locomotives. Kings Cross-Newcastle expresses often worked through didn't they?

I know Grantham, Doncaster and York were key places but how do you know which of these sheds would provide a loco for particular service.

[workev]

That, Tom, is the $64,000 question! Are you asking in general, or for specific trains or a location. Changes at Grantham were far fewer in 1959 than 2 years earlier, as the lodging turns at KX and Newcastle worked through. By 1959 some trains were also being worked by Class 40s, although these were very unreliable and steam substituted regularly.

That said, some changes still occurred but I have yet to get to 1959 in my research (still at 1956/57). Trains Illustrated and Railway Observers are probably the best source of info, and WTTs.

If I find anything I will post

Ian

[Tom F]

That, Tom, is the $64,000 question! Are you asking in general, or for specific trains or a location. Changes at Grantham were far fewer in 1959 than 2 years earlier, as the lodging turns at KX and Newcastle worked through. By 1959 some trains were also being worked by Class 40s, although these were very unreliable and steam substituted regularly.

That said, some changes still occurred but I have yet to get to 1959 in my research (still at 1956/57). Trains Illustrated and Railway Observers are probably the best source of info, and WTTs.

If I find anything I will post

Ian

Mainly in General. I notice Grantham had a lot of A3s in 1959 and Doncaster a lot of A1s, but my question is really on Down Trains, where generally are the loco changes going to be....I'm guessing at if Gratham, next change will be Doncaster (if working through to Edinburgh) and if Changing at Doncaster, next loco change Newcastle.

That is just guess work mind.

[Tom F]

I've renamed the thread, in response to my new question.

I can see that Grantham was a clear changing point for expresses in the 1930s. In previous periods I've looked at, it's seem unlikely that King's Cross Pacifics every came off at York, either coming off before or working through to Newcastle.

Was this the same in the 1930s, or could you expect a Top Shed Pacific coming off on a York train?

[Saint Johnstoun]

Remember that until 1923 Doncaster was the border between the Great Northern and North Eastern Railways and more likely to be the loco changeover point, something which continued after grouping. Also there were not so many Pacifics around in 1930 so locomotive changes were more frequent as the smaller locos were not trusted with long runs. It is a very complex subject and changed continually as new and larger locos became available. Recommend dipping into the RCTS books, also Peter Townend's writings on Top Shed are informative.

[Solario]

Based on my memory, which may not be that reliable, I don't recollect pure ECML expresses changing locos at York (which I frequented on a number of times each year in the late '50s early '60s). However, there were loco changes for trains originating in the South West (Bristol & beyond), they often came in behind an ex LMS loco (Jubilees, Patriots, Scots, Black 5s) and a Pacific or V2 would take them forward.

At Doncaster, the Hull Kings X services would have a Hull loco on the northern section (typically a B1) which would be replaced by a Pacific (usually an A1) for the run to the south.

[Saint Johnstoun]

We sometimes travelled back to Scotland via relatives at Morpeth which involved getting on a train at Burton on Trent which was usually a Newcastle bound one from the South West. The Jubilee came off at York on several occasions and was replaced by a V2, but on one trip the Black 5 ran right through to Newcastle. The train if I remember and I have looked at the 1958 timetable was the 1224 from Burton which originated at Cardiff and arrived in Newcastle at 5.3.

I suspect that the locomotive change permutations are endless!

[JASd17]

Tom,

Locomotive rosters were changing all the time, in detail. But you have picked up on the fact that Grantham was a key changing point in the 1930s. Kings Cross had only a few through workings to Newcastle, from 1927. Along with the summer non-stop Edinburgh services from 1928. Doncaster's Pacifics were associated most closely with the West Riding services of the GN Section, especially before Pacifics were regularly rostered through to Leeds. Doncaster locos would run through to Kings Cross on the most important Yorkshire trains.

York didn't get a Gresley Pacific until November 1936, these replaced the NER variety. York Pacifics were occasionally seen at Kings Cross on excursion traffic. I would have thought that the same would apply to KX Pacifics at York, although less frequently.

John

[Tom F]

Tom,

Locomotive rosters were changing all the time, in detail. But you have picked up on the fact that Grantham was a key changing point in the 1930s. Kings Cross had only a few through workings to Newcastle, from 1927. Along with the summer non-stop Edinburgh services from 1928. Doncaster's Pacifics were associated most closely with the West Riding services of the GN Section, especially before Pacifics were regularly rostered through to Leeds. Doncaster locos would run through to Kings Cross on the most important Yorkshire trains.

York didn't get a Gresley Pacific until November 1936, these replaced the NER variety. York Pacifics were occasionally seen at Kings Cross on excursion traffic. I would have thought that the same would apply to KX Pacifics at York, although less frequently.

John

Thanks John, this certainly helps.

I have evidence that Galtee More was on shed at York in 1937/1938...so on that principle I can see York as a likely place Grantham locos would come off. Doncaster appears to have had a lot of Pacifics by 1938, in particular A1s and A3s....so it can't be too hard to imagine one being turned at York.

That is useful regarding King's Cross Pacifics. It does seem some things worked further afield in the LNER period, than they would have done in the 1950s/60s.

[workev]

Tom,

I am not sure that Grantham Locos would change at York on a regular basis. Whilst there were some turns that came off at York, these tended to be Parcels or Class C freights. The 1952 links show that most Grantham turns worked to Newcastle or Kings Cross, with a few local services to Doncaster and Peterborough.

As 1952 was a return to Grantham used as a key changing point post WW2, the timetable and links were, as far as I know a return to pre-war links as BR struggled to recover form the chaos of the war years.

The NER Society have a 1952 Locomotive Working document that shows turns for the North East Region for most major GN/ECML sheds. Well worth he money (about £4, plus P&P). Whilst not the 1930s, I doubt there were major changes, except the introduction of the A1s and rebuilt A2s.

Ian

[ArthurK]

As a spotter in the 40s and 50s on Tyneside I can speak from experience that the KX Pacifics were not an easy cop except for those (A4s) on the none stops. Many of the other southern area locos evaded me for years. Those that kept me waiting the longest were "Diamond Jubilee", "Pretty Polly" and "Andrew K. Mckosh". I did eventually see those after a few trips to Kings Cross in the 1960s. That A4 I managed to see on a rare trip through Doncaster. My only regret was that I did miss out on one A3 "Woolwinder". It was one of the early ones to be withdrawn.

On the other hand I did get a couple of nice photos of "Pretty Polly" at Sandy and KX.

ArthurK

[Tom F]

Tom,

I am not sure that Grantham Locos would change at York on a regular basis. Whilst there were some turns that came off at York, these tended to be Parcels or Class C freights. The 1952 links show that most Grantham turns worked to Newcastle or Kings Cross, with a few local services to Doncaster and Peterborough.

As 1952 was a return to Grantham used as a key changing point post WW2, the timetable and links were, as far as I know a return to pre-war links as BR struggled to recover form the chaos of the war years.

The NER Society have a 1952 Locomotive Working document that shows turns for the North East Region for most major GN/ECML sheds. Well worth he money (about £4, plus P&P). Whilst not the 1930s, I doubt there were major changes, except the introduction of the A1s and rebuilt A2s.

Ian

Hi Ian

I indeed have the NERA Loco Working Document and I've just had a good look through it. Interestingly there appears to be a good number of Grantham turns which seemed to show locos coming on York Shed, so maybe Grantham Pacifics were more common that we think.

I'm getting copies of a 1938 WTT next week, which should help things.

Cheers

Tom