Dogs post nationalisation

[37b]

A recent post by Richard on another topic got me thinking.
Which locos (pacifics only please) spent more time in the works than in service from 1948 to say 1960? Which were the 'dogs'?
Dave

[Saint Johnstoun]

You need to be aware that accident victims sometimes were in the Plant longer than normal overhauls, also the amount of work needed on a general would dictate the length of time spent therein. There were always the black sheep of the family and I suspect it is those you are looking for.

I would recommend that a set of Yeadons be consulted, also the Irwell series on the Pacifics as to collate this information would take a very long time!

[jwealleans]

Was it not also the case that if a shopping proposal was refused due to insufficient mileage, the offender would be dumped out of the way somewhere and booked as 'shed pilot' or similar so it accrued a theoretical daily mileage until it reached a sufficient figure?

[Saint Johnstoun]

A number of good books touch on this subject - Peter Townend's Top Shed, Harry Knox's two books on Haymarket, and others. The railways from the 1930s on were always trying to save money and if a locomotive could be kept going then, unless some major failure occurred, as you say the usual practice was to keep the thing going on suitable duties to run up the mileage so that shopping was approved.

[52D]

Accidents didnt turn locos into dogs, take for instance Merry Hampton twice into the ballast in a big way but soon up and running again.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Not quite true. Merry Hampton was in works from 8th June until 27th September 1926 after the Cramlington Derailment. Also noted with a broken frame and shopped from 29th September to 15th November 1932! (six weeks)

The length of time taken to effect repairs after an accident would vary for many reasons. Firstly it would depend on the actual damage - remember unseen damage seen looking at photos retrospectively would only come to light back at the works and other repairs would result for an assessment as to whether the loco would be given a full heavy overhaul or such damage as there was, if insignificant in real terms, repaired.

A locomotive in steam turned on its side or canted at an angle due to an accident could receive firebox or boiler damage, unseen to the eye, but imagine a loco turned on it side in steam, with the remains of the fire lying on one side of the firebox, and the other side exposed below the water level for instance? The firebox would have to be given a thorough inspection and any damage - broken stays etc. sorted.

I would add that Merry Hampton was also given a General Overhaul after Goswick on the 26th October 1947 being in works from 16th November to 2nd January 1948. That's six weeks!

So much for soon back on the road again!

[Andy W]

My experience as a "shopping and availability" man is that the real dogs tend to spend more time on shed than the others. Their time on works may or may not be the same as more reliable ones but trying to keep them off shed and able to do their duties reliably becomes a bit of a struggle.

Of course you can keep them on easier duties but then that has a tendancy to bite you back when they have to do the heavier stuff. You can get a poor loco by having what is known as a "bad classified" in works and then you have a real job on your hands with niggling faults until, if you are really unlucky, its next classified repair. Then there are some that just seem to give trouble come what may, and in my time at KX, Deltic 12 was the one that used to give us most grief. There were several steam era guys still around then, including one of my steam day predecessors and they used to reckon on 60010 and 60103 giving most problems. They all seem to love 60007 and 60106.

Of course if a fault develops shortly after emerging from shops you can sling it back in under "rectification" and usually any fault is fixed quickly (Deltic 12 was an inglorious exception to that rule in 1979) but it's the ones that appear later that you can get into an argument about and, of course, any succession of niggling little faults on a loco could really mess up your shed output as you have to divert resources to deal with them and then you can get into a real state with your availabilities.

The secret of successful shopping is to get the locos into works just before they stop themselves. Obviously the law of averages sometimes applies and it doesn't last the full time or miles to shops. Hence the slightly bizarre practise in steam days of booking them on drivers dockets until they can be accepted by the regional shopping bureau. But if you have one loco effectively stopped on shed doing nothing, that is putting a real strain on the rest of your fleet.

One thing to watch about Yeadons when it comes to KX Division Pacifics. In latter days they used get their V&P exams done at Plant rather than at home depot so they will show up more at Doncaster.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Interesting as to what you say about 60103? Methinks that it was perhaps not the best A3 to preserve?

My friend ACB (ex Finsbury Park) is currently working on a report on 60103 for the NRM - he is currently sworn to secrecy but once the NRM have digested it it will be in the public domain so we can then see what has really gone wrong.

[jwealleans]

That is in addition to the Bob Meanley report which is already in the public domain?

[Saint Johnstoun]

Yes - this is an independent report commissioned by the NRM.

[giner]

Interesting as to what you say about 60103? Methinks that it was perhaps not the best A3 to preserve?

Possibly, but even if it proves too costly to run and maintain indefinitely, it has "star power" over any other member of the class in drawing the average tourist to the NRM.

[60800]

Hopefully she'll be a better runner now the frames are actually aligned properly

[jwealleans]

They all became better runners once Doncaster started aligning the frames properly.

[Saint Johnstoun]

I think that use of words in the last post is misleading. The steam engine is a complex piece of machinery, and the mere optical alignment of the frames is only one issue affecting performance, in the case of the Gresley Pacifics it basically reduced the incidence of hot boxes, centre big end failures, and frame related issues. I think the real transformation of the A3s came when all were fitted with Kylchap exhausts.

Locomotive performance, hence 'running' is dependent on steam generation in the first instance, and a good, free steaming boiler is the key.

[jwealleans]

I wouldn't disagree with any of that; I was trying to remind the previous poster that the A3s have been down this road before. I also only used the word 'better', rather than anything stronger. 'Transform' is quite appropriate for the Kylchap conversion.