A4 Golden Plover

[Graeme Leary]

Hope someone can help me.
I have a Hornby 'Queen of Scots' train set (A4 loco and 3 coaches), all 4 pieces named with 'Queen of Scots' name boards but the A4 loco (Golden Plover) is in British Railways Green and crest and numbered 60031.
As I model in the 'Big 4 era' I want to repaint the A4 loco (if necessary)and renumber as 4497 and I would be grateful if someone could help me with which of the 6 (I believe) LNER liveries Golden Plover may have been in that era.
I'm also keen to double check that Golden Plover did in fact haul 'The Queen of Scots' train as 4497 and to confirm that the named Pullman coaches in the set are prototypically correct.
Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[kimballthurlow]

Hi Graeme,

I can help partly, regards the engine.

The BR green livery was applied from 1951, 3 years after the Big Four were nationalised.
Immediately prior to 1948, the livery of 4497 was garter blue with LNER on the tender, and numbered cabside simply '31'.

As 4497, between May 1942 and August 1947, it was black. Prior to that it was always garter blue, with full valances. It was built in October 1937.

It was always a Haymarket (Edinburgh?) engine, so that may give you some reference to whether it likely pulled the Queen of Scots.

As regards authenticity of the engine, you might also check what type of tender is supplied for the model. Tender types varied across the A4 series.

regards
Kimball

[Saint Johnstoun]

It is of course not that practical to add valances to a post-war model. I would add that the Queen of Scots did not run during the war when the locomotive was black and I would need to check a reinstatement date after 1945.

Pullman car disposition is complex and again the information is available but I don't have it as it is not an area into which I delve. Another point - the A4s were not that common on the QOS anyway as their use was more often on the non stop and the Coronation. A1s and A3s were often used and pre-war NER class Z Atlantics. The train was often hauled from Glasgow by a D11/2 and post-war a B1.

[S.A.C. Martin]

According to Yeadons, Golden Plover was garter blue without valances, between 1946 and 1949. Prior to that, it was all over black as 4497, after that it was in the express passenger blue.

Whilst in garter blue between 46 and 49, it carried 4497 (no idea if it was unshaded or shaded lettering, my apologies) and then in May 1946, number 31 under the Thompson renumbering scheme - this is likely to have had stainless steel numbering on the cabside, and stainless steel lettering on the tender. In June 1948, 60031 was applied, with a smokebox numberplate, with the "curly 6" and not actual Gill Sans on the smokebox numberplate, but the correct gill sans 6 on the cabsides.

So you have in theory three choices to pick from for a repaint;

1. 1945-1946 - LNER garter blue, 4497
2. 1946-1948 - LNER garter blue, 31 and stainless steel lettering/numbering
3. 1948-1949 - LNER garter blue, 60031 plus British Railways on tender and curly 6 numberplate

Regarding the QOS Pullmans - Yeadon's has three photographs of A4s pulling said train, including Golden Plover in BR green, early crest, single chimney, in 1952.

[60800]

Here's the post war garter blue options. I would have had them done earlier but the livery needed to be redone for my most recent version of my A4 (a lot of tweaking with liveries and shading has taken place recently) http://2509-silverlink.deviantart.com/a ... 1351272348

[52D]

I echo St J in loco choice for the Queen of Scots regarding NER atlantics and A1 & A3s. SPEARMINT the mount of Toram Begg featured on quite a number of occasions.

[James Brodie]

Sirs here is my 0 gauge Golden Plover with valances and non corridor tender.
JB

[60800]

She's a little beauty

I believe she should have a 1935 diagram corridor tender though

[2512silverfox]

Jim

Quite right, 60031 had a streamlined corridor tender throughout.

Blackout

Your tender should not have any beading between the side and the top fairing!

[60800]

Beading swiftly removed - I should have known really, I've got two 1935 diagram corridor tenders sat less than five feet away from me


EDIT: James, she looks to have a double kylchap blastpipe too. It should be a single blastpipe for 4497

EDIT 2: This is still my very old version of my A4 with out of register lettering, etc, etc, but this is the correct configuration for pre-war LNER: http://2509-silverlink.deviantart.com/g ... 7#/d581trf (ignore the beading on this one, I'm in the process of heavily updating everything)

[James Brodie]

Sirs, There is only one hole in the funnel.
There are five tenders knocking about including a spare for my Raven A2 when I ring the changes so they can get muddled up. I've only ever driven A4s with corridor tenders more used to Green Arrows with various sided 6 wheeled tenders. Corridor tender with drop head Buckeye photo to follow (Modified KaDee)
Ji--It's Sunday....James Brodie.67281.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks to all of you who replied to my query.

As well as the info I gave you initially, the A4 model I have has double chimneys but NO valances, and the tender is a corridor type.

So, wanting to double check I have read responses correctly, would it be acceptable/correct to paint both the loco & tender Black, renumber 4497 (and would the loco and tender have been lined), ie for that period May 1942 to August 1947 (as Kimball I think suggests) and in that case, would the tender have carried the LNER initials or just NE?

Or should I change to Option 1 of S A C Martins ie LNER Garter Blue 4497?

(I actually hope the Black option will be acceptable as, already having 2 Garter Blue A4's (Mallard and Dominion of New Zealand) and a silver (Silver Fox) the contrast of Black - provided correct for that time without the valances but with the double chimney - will (hopefully) provoke some comment and queries from some of my less enlightened - for that, read 'non-modeller' - friends who I could probably bluff but need to be right for the real aficianado).

Saint Johnstoun's comments on A4s and the QOS are very interesting (and moderately baffling) so to be sure, I think during the painting/renumbering process - what ever that should be - I may just gently prise the QOS nameboards off the loco and put to one side until I get myself another spare A1 or A3 to tinker with and use the Pullman coaches with that - would that be about right?

Again, many thanks and I must say the depth of knowledge many of you have blows this colonial away.

Graeme Leary

[kimballthurlow]

Many thanks to all of you who replied to my query.

As well as the info I gave you initially, the A4 model I have has double chimneys but NO valances, and the tender is a corridor type.

So, wanting to double check I have read responses correctly, would it be acceptable/correct to paint both the loco & tender Black, renumber 4497 (and would the loco and tender have been lined), ie for that period May 1942 to August 1947 (as Kimball I think suggests) and in that case, would the tender have carried the LNER initials or just NE?

........
Graeme Leary

Hi Graeme,
4497 ran in black between May and December 1942 with LNER on the tender. After that, it was plain NE for 5 years.

In black livery, it possibly never hauled the QOS, because the train did not run in the war years. There may be a window in 1946/7 where it did haul the train.

Anyway, it is your modelling, and I am sure your imagination will think up a suitable scenario for running as you would like.

One slight problem is that Golden Plover never had a double chimney till 1958. There is of course no reason why you have to keep Golden Plover as the name. Sir Charles Newton, Mallard, Seagull, and Lord Faringdon all had double chimneys from new. The others were fitted from 1957 on.

Sorry ot be such a killjoy.

regards
Kimball

[Saint Johnstoun]

Haymarket Shed was the provider of motive power for the Queen of Scots. Pre-war, and just post-grouping, the North Eastern Railway legacy continued with NER Z Atlantics (LNER C7) being used between Newcastle and Edinburgh and when the "Harrogate Pullman" was extended to Edinburgh and Glasgow in 1928 these locomotives were used as far as Edinburgh.
With the arrival of more Pacifics, the train was often hauled by a Gresley A1 or A3, but A4s were not that common, indeed post-war the usual motive power was a Peppercorn A1, Saint Johnstoun (60162) being a favourite. Although pacifics were often used from Glasgow, anything suitable could be rostered from D49s, V2s, B1s and even a D11/2 with an engine change at Edinburgh.
There is therefore plenty of choice when wishing to operate this train in miniature.

One final point. The Queen of Scots was not restored post-war until BR days. Towards the end of steam anything from Eastfield including Standard Fives brought the train from Glasgow to Edinburgh.

[60800]

the tender is a corridor type

That will be the 1935 type then (curved back). You see, for changing the name we now hit another brick wall as all the double kylchap garter blue A4's had non corridor tenders from new and as far as I'm aware, these were carried on through the wartime black period by the d/k A4's. The simple solution here is to buy a cheap non corridor tender from ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HORNBY-A4-LNE ... 2ec2fa6abf

Remember, this could be a lot worse and a lot more confusing - we could be juggling Gresley A1 / A3 variants here