K1 Cab Detail

[boeing757]

Hi,
I've already asked this on the Modelling Forum but no success.
Can anyone suggest a reference source showing the backhead and cab layout for a K1 (62001-70) or even better post a picture or two of 62005's cab. It's a long way from Cyprus to Grosmont and in any case I'm not sure 62005 is there at present.
Many Thanks

[drmditch]

Sorry, don't know of any published pictures. 62005 is now at Fort William for the summer, according to the NELPG websit. You could look at that (www.nelpg.org.uk) or perhaps find someone going to Scotland ?

[Bryan]

Contact the NELPG direct
http://www.nelpg.org.uk/index.php?optio ... &Itemid=20

[69999]

I have a recently completed ‘O’ gauge model of a Peppercorn K1 2-6-0. Extensive use was made of Works Drawings to ensure accuracy.
Loco drawings were obtained from the NRM and tender drawings were copies of the original N B Loco drawings obtained from The Archivist, The University, Glasgow G12 8QQ. Loco drawings were also available from this source but they are full size copies and much more expensive than the NRM.
There is a good pair of drawings for the locomotive in the NRM Drawings Archive under the reference 4/GW/9929/E x (2) – meaning there are two parts. This drawing reference is described as ‘Pipe & Rod arr’t of 2-6-0 engine Class K1’. It includes the cab sides, interior, backhead and a plan view.
As of Feb 2012 NRM prices for drawing copies were – A0 £12.50; A1 £10; A2 £7.50; A3 £5. A two part drawing is priced x 2. Postage is extra and dependent on mode of delivery.
An alternative is to look at Fig 228 in the RCTS Locos of the LNER Part 2B. This shows the cab of B1 class 1000 in 1947. Given that the boiler on the K1 was a shortened B1 100A reclassified to 116 I would expect that the two backheads were very similar if not identical.
Another alternative is to pm me and see if I can assist further.
Regards
DG
69999

[60800]

Don't count me on it, but I think the cabs of the K4's and K1's were identical inside. If so, I've found this picture from 61994: http://mocko.org.uk/g/v/2010/Highlands/ ... 4.JPG.html It's not much, but it's a darn sight better than nothing

[Saint Johnstoun]

The K1 has a pull across (GC style) regulator like the B1s whilst the K4 has the Gresley pull out type. I cannot find any documentary evidence in RCTS but have just watched a clip of a video of the K1 on the Mallaig Extension and this confirms the above.

[boeing757]

Thank you very much for your replies.
Blackout60800, thanks but I was fairly sure that Gresley's cab differed from his successors with a lowered centre floor rather than the level floor of the B1 and as St Johnstoun points out a different regulator.
I have a Finescale B1 which I could copy but I am reluctant to copy a model. So 69999 I will be in touch.
Thank you again for all replies
B

[65447]

Allowing for any minor differences, there is a B1 firebox backhead and cab detail photograph that appears in John Crawley's The London & North Eastern Railway In Focus, W D Wharton, 2001 ISBN 1-899597-12-3, in fig.110 on p.68.

[Saint Johnstoun]

The K1 boiler was in effect a shortened B1 one, and from what I can see the layout was identical.

[Greedy Boards]

I believe that the large boilered K1 & B1 have their origins in the United States, via the locomotive works of the North Eastern Railway. During Wilson Wordell's tenure as CME, a party of staff visited the USA to witness locomotive designs, and how these might be transferred to the NE Region.

The first 5 ft 6 in boilered locomotive appeared as the P2/J26 0-6-0 in 1904, followed by the P3/J27 0-6-0 in 1906; the T2/Q6 0-8-0 in 1913; the S3/B16 4-6-0 in 1919; the T3/Q7 0-8-0 in 1919; J39 0-6-0 in 1926; D49 4-4-0 in 1927; B1 4-6-0 in 1942; K4 2-6-0 in 1945; and K1 2-6-0 in 1949.

I believe that the J39 and D49 used Boiler Diag No 97; the B1 Boiler Diag No100A; and K1 Boiler Diag No116, which was as previously stated, a shortened version of the B1 boiler. That said, which R-T-R manufacturer is going to produce the K1 2-6-0, when they both have a B1, and the J39 and D49 could provide valid starting points as well?

Perhaps the NELPG K1 lads need to watch out for strange people with scanners on the West Highland line this Summer?

Regards

Greedy Boards

[65447]

I believe that the large boilered K1 & B1 have their origins in the United States, via the locomotive works of the North Eastern Railway. During Wilson Wordell's tenure as CME, a party of staff visited the USA to witness locomotive designs, and how these might be transferred to the NE Region.

No, not true. The design of the B1 incorporated as many features of the GWR 'Hall' as could be got away with. The individual in question in the Doncaster Locomotive Drawing Office modelled GWR locomotives in 3.5" gauge! The K1 was a smaller version of the B1.

[Saint Johnstoun]

But - Churchward got a lot of his ideas from the USA!

[Atlantic 3279]

Might it not be entirely erroneous to imagine some kind of "mainly Darlington" ancestry for the B1 and K1 designs???? Even if Thompson had something of a Darlington "look" imposed upon the new locos, I believe the B1, including its boiler, was very much a mixed-traffic, modernised, but utilitarian / austerity re-working of as much of the B17 design as could be used, initially with the existing V2 pattern of wheels. The strengthened version of the B17 boiler therefore owes its ancestry to the North British Locomotive Company, who had the unenviable job of trying to sort out a weight-limit compliant 4-6-0 on a theme that had already been largely dictated by the specification issued by the LNER, in accordance with work already done towards a design at Doncaster. The 5' 6" diameter boiler barrel therefore can be seen to derive from an initial desire at Doncaster to use either the Gresley 2-8-0 boiler as it stood, or a new variant of that. The 2-8-0 boiler of course acquired its barrel size from the GNR large-boilered Atlantic, the 2-8-0 version being re-equipped with a long narrow firebox and superheating from the outset. A wide-firebox Atlantic was indeed a US inspired development, but not via the link of the North Eastern management visit to America. The B1 cylinders were developed from the ex-GNR K2 pattern also. The K1 version of the design again has Doncaster ancestry, in terms of the cylinders (again) the mogul frame layout, another Doncaster standard coupled wheel size, and the boiler - no matter whether that is viewed primarily as just a shortened B1 boiler, or as a "standardised" descendent and replacement of the K4 and K1/1 versions that went before. That original K4 boiler too had 2-8-0, B17 and (in the same family) K2 lineage.
I won't argue with the fact that a number of the "new to the LNER" features of the B1 and K1 may well have been tried on the GWR previously.

[Saint Johnstoun]

You are spot on Graeme, one could say B17 to B2 then B1. Remember that the Hall was simply a rebuilt Saint with smaller wheels anyway. Despite Gresley's policy of horses for courses there were many common components across the classes.

[john coffin]

I think we all know that from a very early time, British visitors to the American railways were quite regular, and of course Gresley in part based the A1 class on the outline design of the Philidelphia K4, in particular in relation to the wide firebox. In the same way the GNR Atlantic was based in outline on an American design. Plus of course 3 railways bought locos from Baldwin in the 1890's. Remember that many of the American and Canadian Railways were basically financed in the early days by British financiers, so a technology exchange had been flowing since the opening of the Liverpool and Manchester in 1830.

By the end of the 1930's there had been a massive interchange of staff between the grouped railways. Stanier from GWR to LMS, Bullied to Southern from GNR/LNER etc and if course Gresley had used a version of the derived motion that was originally proposed by a GWR man on the A1/3's. If you study some of the locos produced by people like North British, it is interesting to see how much is them and how little is the home railway. Earlier of course, Marsh had been allowed to copy a GNR Atlantic when he left Doncaster to go to the LBSCR, and now the Bluebell has for some time been proposing building an LBSCR Atlantic using an ex GNR Atlantic boiler.

By the middle of the war, it was as important to reduce the difficulty of maintenance as to use new technology.

paul