The LNER Encyclopedia

I think this is a something of a "cross-over" topic between models and the real thing!

From a modelling perspective there seems to be a consensus that locomotive were somewhere between weathered and pristine or ex-works. There are some excellent examples of the weathered look on many models produced by members of this forum and indeed RTR. Then of course there are the pristine models which generally have a satin finish.

However, photographs I have admired of locos ex-works seem to indicate a very shiny, more gloss-like finish, and clearly many sheds were at pains to keep their passenger locomotives looking very smart in day to day running conditions. I'm not sure about the attitude towards goods engines, but are we correct in applying the satin finish to our pride and joys?

I would be very interested to know what the reality was during the pre-war years especially.

Oily rag waste and elbow grease pretty well sums it up, I think.

I've just completed my collection of Modellers Backtrack and on the rear cover of one of the ones I've just obtained is a picture taken at Neasden in 1938 on a Sunday. There is a line of locos - B17, F7, D11, A5 - in the yard somewhere and what struck me was how clean they are. Not ex-works shiny, but clean, lettering plainly visible and gloss areas showing up against places like smokebox and cab roof where the finish doesn't last.

Goods locos were clearly a different matter and the situation may have varied from shed to shed but through the 1930s at least, with labour relatively cheap and plentiful, cleaning seems to have been in evidence.

Gloss finish on a model doesn't scale, for me, though - satin shows up detail better. That said, the finish Tim Easter has achieved on his recent pacific models with Klear is very good and something I do intend to try myself.

I agree , Gloss doesnt look right to me.
Another reason for using Satin is that is does not show every minute paint defect on a model either. Gloss shows every fault no matter how minor !!.

2002EarlMarischal wrote:... I would be very interested to know what the reality was during the pre-war years especially.

A book I have recommended before 'The Big Four in Colour', provides a good cross section of what is available in the way of quality colour photos of that period. No doubt whatsoever about it: ex-works locos were glossy. The LNER specified three coats of varnish on top of loco green with intermediate flatting of the first two coats. That's a good method for a high gloss with wearing qualities. In service the finish degraded as the heat, dirt deposition and cleaning progressively took its toll.

Nevertheless on the express types like pacifics which typically got an annual works overhaul, and thus a visit to the paint shop; even those filthy after hard work very clearly have bright paintwork in good nick underneath the deposit. In terms of what was possible, in the book above there's a 'specimen photo' of one of Hitchin's C1 allocation which shows how a loco could be kept. It's a beauty...

In model form, high gloss simply is too much, a well judged satin the best thing for a newly painted loco. There's artistry in the exact choice...

Given the evidence of plenty of gloss varnishing (via the official painting schedule and many ex-works photos), what are we to make of reports I've seen in print (though don't ask me where) suggesting that Gresley thought 4472 far too glossy as prepared for Wembley exhibition, and in need of flatting down?

Ay up!

I gloss varnished a pair of EE type 4s for my N gauge to show the shiny shiny diesels. On the bench they looked good, picking up reflections nicely. However, on the layout they looked awful, picking up too many reflections!

It all comes down to scale colour. A "glossy side of satin" finish looks just right to me.

Certainly up until the late 30s the engine colour was a mat paint followed by varnish coats as already stated to provide the final gloss finish.. Generally the repaints took place at each General overhaul and possibly Intermediate, but typically not every year! Viz the Grey A4's which lasted quite a time before going into Grater Blue.

From a scale point of view, gloss varnish does not work. Satin is best but I have finished models which were destined to be on display with a satin/gloss mix.

Once in service there were so many different factors which affected the finish, but oily waste seem to have been used in most cases so that weathering becomes quite an art.

Ay up!

Oily waste, paraffin, brick dust (turned the varnish matt so had to be oiled over), steam lance. All different ways to remove what was an abrasive coating in itself.

Thanks everyone for the very useful replies.

I think that the idea of ex-works loco models being finished in a "halfway house" between satin and gloss may be a runner.

With regards to Tim's use of Johnson's Klear, I find that it can leave a patchy finish not unlike a car which has been washed and not leathered off. I might try it out though!

Atlantic 3279 wrote:... what are we to make of reports I've seen in print (though don't ask me where) suggesting that Gresley thought 4472 far too glossy as prepared for Wembley exhibition, and in need of flatting down?

I knew I had read that somewhere; it is in 'Bill Harvey's Sixty Years in Steam'. He recalls during his time in the Crimpsall being allocated to Herbert Strangward's team to prepare 4472 for the British Empire Exhibition of 1925 at Wembley. Some of the technique in getting an exhibition finish is described, and also Mr Gresley's decision that the loco be flatted down to an eggshell finish as he "disliked the multiple reflections produced by the mirror-like brilliance". The accompanying photo of 4472 at the works before flatting down ahead of departure to Wembley is not a wonderful reproduction in the copy I have, but there is no doubt about the gleaming finish, looks rather like a jewellers shop window.

A slightly different question now, but on a similar theme!

Not a weathering question in the sense of general grubbiness, but has anyone any knowledge of what tended to happen to LNER green with the passage of time? What I mean is, did it tend to lighten or darken between workshop visits? What level of colour variation has been reported?

The idea of Doncaster and Darlington greens (at least during LNER days) seems to have been proven erroneous, but I am sure that I have read that there was colour variation.

PS: Thanks for all the earlier advice!

Probobaly impossible to know . The few colour photos from the period are affected by many factors including light etc etc. I would think if anything that the colours would lighten with age , but having typed that, bearing in mind that Steam Locos are by nature a very dirty beast the colour could be darker !!

There is a variation between Doncaster and Darlington Greens .

Cheers Mick! I have a Hornby USA Scotsman converted to Salmon Trout which is in the slightly darker green which presumably Hornby have used as their attempt to be faithful to the Darlington green used in 1968ish. With the postponement of Book Law, I am tempted by some "bargain" USA Scotsman sets for further conversions, but was worried about colour. Probably shouldn't be?

Ay up, EM!

Darlington green was the same colour as that used at Doncaster, Stratford and all the other LNER works because the paint was supplied to the LNER by Williamson's of Ripon.

Darlington screwed up the paint mixing in 1968 and called it Darlington Green and thus started a debate about nothing.

If anything, the apple green would have darkened with age as dirt became embedded in the surface and collected around bolt heads, handrail pillars and similar impedimenta to cleaning. If a "very clean" finish was required, the steam lance would be brought into play but normally it was a case of oily rag, paraffin or even brick dust to clean the surface. Oh, and plenty of elbow grease!