The LNER Encyclopedia

Two Brake Thirds to Diagram 308 (31864-5) and four Twin-Thirds to Diagram 307 (32770/1, 32772/3, 32774/5, 32776/7) were built at York in 1939. These differed from earlier Tourist Stock in having steel panels, though the overall layout was similar.

The Diagram Book shows these two diagrams as having the roof ends curving down in the style of normal Gresley gangwayed stock, unlike earlier Tourist Stock.

Two questions:

1) Does anyone know of published photos of these vehicles?
2) In what livery did they enter service (Harris suggests they were not completed until after the outbreak of WW2)?

The LNERCA web site has a catalog of the LNER carriage photos held by the NRM under 'Resources' link.
I can find this:


Diagram Date built at Vehicle type Number NRM File NRM Photo No. Gresley's coaches page Coments
308 1939 York brake third open 31865 LNER/19 Yor 639 - see also Don 33/51 tourist stock 16846 after 1946 v

Link:

http://www.lnerca.org/resources/nrm-photocat.html

1) Does anyone know of published photos of these vehicles?
2) In what livery did they enter service (Harris suggests they were not completed until after the outbreak of WW2)?

There is a picture of Diagram 308 No. 31865 in Harris's revised book 'LNER Carriages' published by Thomas & Lochar, 1994. Page 96.

The roof profile is the same as the earlier Tourist stock, although painted dark grey.
The photo shows the vehicle sides in the Green and Cream, Photo is stated to be November 1939, they also had deeper window vents than the earlier versions.

I cannot find a picture of the twins. Bishop states that the first 32770/1 was built at York in 8/1939, similar to the above date, so probably turned out with a similar livery (?)

John

JASd17 wrote:

1) Does anyone know of published photos of these vehicles?
2) In what livery did they enter service (Harris suggests they were not completed until after the outbreak of WW2)?

There is a picture of Diagram 308 No. 31865 in Harris's revised book 'LNER Carriages' published by Thomas & Lochar, 1994. Page 96.

The roof profile is the same as the earlier Tourist stock, although painted dark grey.
The photo shows the vehicle sides in the Green and Cream, Photo is stated to be November 1939, they also had deeper window vents than the earlier versions.

I cannot find a picture of the twins. Bishop states that the first 32770/1 was built at York in 8/1939, similar to the above date, so probably turned out with a similar livery (?)

John

Thanks for the information.

Robert,

Bob Johnston wrote several articles on the Tourist Stock for the LNER Study Group Journal, the most comprehensive being in Issue 1, December 1997. As to livery for the later steel-panelled vehicles, he notes among the comprehensive livery data that the green paint was carried up to the bottom edge of the windows (there wasn't any aluminium trim strip) and the roofs were painted grey at the outset (standard wartime variation). There was still the thin black line separating the green and cream colour blocks and the ends of all the Tourist stock were by now painted black, as were the underframes etc. and the cant rail and ends of the roof.

He also notes the variation in the depth and type of window toplights/vents as mentioned by John above.

These Journals have now all been scanned to PDF files and a CD containing Issues 1-46 should be available to members at the AGM at the end of October. Unfortunately for your enquiry, the only photos are of TBTO 22269 in 1934 and TTTO 45151/2 in 1933.

I can confirm that the livery details given by 65447 are those displayed by No. 31865. There is no indentification letter to the right of the door either. In the text Harris (reference as my previous post) states 'From 1942 onwards, vehicles in need of repainting were supposed to be turned out in teak paint.' Perhaps the key word here is 'supposed'. Although the 'Big Four in Colour' view shows that at least some received teak paint.

John

Further to livery details.
LNER Drwg 9552N ARRANGEMENT OF WRITING FOR OPEN 3rd BRAKES (Excursion Stock) 1933, final revision 1937 has a pencil note added (no date) saying - ends of vehicles to be painted black in future.

Tourist Interiors.
LNER Drwg 10055N/A Interior finish of Tourist Stock, revised 7/12/1938 to suit steel panel tourist stock (York 1938) says.

TWO TWIN SETS PER TRAIN.
Ceiling & ceiling fittings - Ivory rexine 176 F1 L29 60" wide with Ivory paint to match.
Cornice moulding, side quarters & cross partitions above waist - Grey stipplex F quality 51" wide.
Body etc below waist inc waste moulding, table tops, seat arm rests, seat backs (half only) gangway side - Green antique Rexine F quality 51" wide.
Blinds - Face side - Green antique 4039, reverse side - Engine green.
Floor - Green lino to match 4039.
Seats - Holdsworth 721/8548 green moquette.
Table legs & edges, seat legs - Green to match 4039.

TWO TWIN SETS PER TRAIN.
Ceiling & ceiling fittings - Ivory rexine 593A L29 60" wide with Ivory paint to match.
Cornice moulding, side quarters & cross partitions above waist - Brown F quality colour 4029, 51" wide.
Body etc below waist inc waste moulding, table tops, seat arm rests, seat backs (half only) gangway side - Brown Rexine colour 4029, F quality 51" wide.
Blinds - Face side - Brown 4029, reverse side - Engine green.
Floor - Brown lino to match 4029.
Seats - Holdsworth 721/8548 brown moquette.
Table legs & edges, seat legs - brown to match 4029.

TWO OPEN BRAKES PER TRAIN.
Ceiling & ceiling fittings - Ivory rexine 176 F1 L29 60" wide with Ivory paint to match.
Cornice moulding, side quarters & cross partitions above waist - Silver grey F quality colour 3400, 51" wide.
Body etc below waist inc waste moulding, table tops, seat arm rests, seat backs (half only) gangway side - Blue Rexine, F quality 51" wide.
Blinds - Face side - Blue, reverse side - Engine green.
Floor - Blue.
Seats - Holdsworth 721/7868 blue moquette.
Table legs & edges, seat legs - blue.

Hope this is of interest.

On the above drawing all the buffet car info is crossed out as it relates to drawing 10055N of 1934

65447 wrote:Robert,

Bob Johnston wrote several articles on the Tourist Stock for the LNER Study Group Journal, the most comprehensive being in Issue 1, December 1997. As to livery for the later steel-panelled vehicles, he notes among the comprehensive livery data that the green paint was carried up to the bottom edge of the windows (there wasn't any aluminium trim strip) and the roofs were painted grey at the outset (standard wartime variation). There was still the thin black line separating the green and cream colour blocks and the ends of all the Tourist stock were by now painted black, as were the underframes etc. and the cant rail and ends of the roof.

He also notes the variation in the depth and type of window toplights/vents as mentioned by John above.

These Journals have now all been scanned to PDF files and a CD containing Issues 1-46 should be available to members at the AGM at the end of October. Unfortunately for your enquiry, the only photos are of TBTO 22269 in 1934 and TTTO 45151/2 in 1933.

Hopefully I shall be at the AGM (work permitting).

The copies of the Diagrams I referred to are in the three-volume facsimile copy of the LNER Carriage Diagram Book that David Williamson had on sale on the NER Association stand at the recent model railway exhibition in North Shields.

Robert

There is no doubt that the diagram to which you refer is in error. There are a number of minor errors in those diagrams as a whole and this fact goes a long way to emphasise how essential it is to have a photo as well as a diagram!

I appreciate that this thread is now old but I have just acquired the Isinglass kit ( dia 307 articulated twin ) to finish for a friend within our model railway group. My main concern is with the roof profile of this diagram, the diagram drawing shows the typical Gresley styled domed outer ends on these later built diagrams. Was this the norm for these diagrams or were they actually built with the 'normal' style roof of the earlier tourist stock and the diagram drawing not being adhered too when building took place. One of the initial posters indicated that there may be errors in these diagrams, could one of these be the roof profile.
As I not fully aware of all the details of these coaches and as previously remarked photos of these twins are rare to say the least.
Can any experts on the forum shed any light on my problem before doing the build.
Thanks in anticipation for any clarification.
Allan

The domed roof is an error and I thought Andrew had changed the kit. There's discussion on Tony Wright's thread on RMWeb and also on 'Coulsdon Works' where Andy Sparkes built them. I think he put them together as supplied, but I believe there is a photograph on that thread as well, if it has survived.

Edit - I must have downloaded the picure at the time = here it is.

Hi ,thanks for this info, they are old kits and I do not know when they were purchased. I have spoke to Andy re obtaining new roofs and ends as I had a feeling they were wrong. A problem I now have is that there was some damage to the sides which I have repaired but I do think they will stand up to de-bonding therefore maybe new sides as well!!
Thanks for replying so quickly and is much appreciated.
regards Allan

Hi,
I bought the original dia307 kit with domed end roofs and was made aware of the diagram error through RMWeb. I put the kit aside.

I spoke to Andrew (?) at Isinglass at this year's ExpoEM, Bracknell and mentioned this issue.

He told me he had retooled the kit with the correct non-domed roofs and correct ends. He has also altered the way the sides and ends are joined so that the ends fit inside the sides. Thus the sides have also been redesigned ie are a bit longer.

Andrew kindly sent me the complete revised body FOC..

I think Andrew's early 3D printed kits had the ends incorrectly fitting onto the ends of the sides but he has now changed this certainly on his later kits. I am not sure if he has revised all the earlier kits.

Keith