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SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:54 pm
by cameronian
Bit nervous about venturing into LNER territory as I suppose I'm an LMS/BR (LMR) bloke.
However, I'm researching some details about train services through Nuneaton Abbey Street, on the Leicester Midland - Birmingham (New Street) line, and wonder if any of you over there on the dry side of the UK have any information at all about the SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street) service.
I believe it ran in two directions with one set provided by BR (ER) and the other by BR (LMR).
I fondly remember seeing this train, with it's somewhat strange, but not unattractive, loco's and stock. The loco's were nearly always Immingham B1's, and those rostered for this train were always quite neatly turned out.
Any information on timings, route, stock composition (what vehicles made up the train),etc., would be gratefully received. Is there any significant history to the service stretching back into LNER days?
Thanks in advance for any helpyou can give.
Kind regards
cameronian
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:53 am
by Pyewipe Junction
This train is of interest to Lincolnians also as it was (to my knowledge) the only regular passenger train to use the short section of ex-GC line between Pelham Street Junction and Lincoln St Mark's until the Newark chord was connected, making this the main line from Newark to Cleethorpes. British Main Line Services in the Age of Steam mentions that it was introduced as a summer train in the late 1930s, so that may answer one of your questions. It was re-introduced after WWII and ran until the early 1960s (not sure when it was discontinued). I think it may have originated as a GC/MR service.
In summer 1959 the train left Cleethorpes at 0700, arriving Birmingham New Street at 1113, 1650 and 2128 in the other direction. BUT SO it was extended to and from Bournemouth West (arr 1648, dep 1140). I always thought it went via Derby, Tamworth and the S&DJR, but your sightings of it confirm it went via Leicester. Apparently in 1960 there were also through coaches to Sidmouth and Exmouth.
There is no indication in my ER timetable that there were any refreshment facilities provided, at least from Cleethorpes to Birmingham. Perhaps after Birmingham, but I doubt it, given the pathetic state of BR's catering facilities in those days.
I'm glad you enjoyed seeing the Immingham B1s. They must have been among the most travelled of the class, what with their duties on the London expresses and the fish trains as well. And yes, 40B always turned out a decent loco, even towards the end. Any idea what took over at Birmingham - a 5 or a Jube perhaps?
Don't be nervous here. Speaking for myself I find the parochialism associated with the steam age to be pathetic. I even like Bulleid locos!
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:23 am
by rob237
Recall once seeing a Saltley Black 5 heading the return working eastward over the Newark flat crossing...presumably replacing a sick Immingham B1, marooned in Brum.
Leicester routeing confirmed by David Weston's painting of the B1 (predictably Mayflower!) hauling the service at Syston Jct.
Cheers
Robt P.
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 4:14 pm
by cameronian
Thanks for the information.
The routing was definitely via Leicester for a long time. Whilst trawling other sources I came across Plate 35 in Hibbs' book 'Rail Nostalgia Around Warwickshire'. This shows a very nicely turned out Immingham B1, 61366, departing Nuneaton AS towards Birmingham NS with 8 coaches and just a feather of steam at the safety valves.
Unfortunately, this engine appears to be pulling the LMR rake; I say unfortunately because I'm really trying to find out what the LNER rake make up was. I've no real LNER or BR (ER) knowledge to even guess at what stock might be cascaded down to these SO secondary cross country routes. My clear recollection is that some of the stock was what I would call
'Gresley' stock, but not necessarily all.
If the train was terminating at Birmingham NS, the stock and engine went forward to Bournville, if the coaches were through, then the engine would still go to Bournville for servicing. B1's could fit on the roundhouse turntable at Bournville, which was enlarged from 50' to 57' in 1948. Anything larger before would be turned on the Bournville triangle with the Camp Hill lines.
The routing at Lincoln was not what I expected. I though it might use the Durham Ox Junction to St. Marks connecting spur. Thereafter,I guess it would be Newark (cross the ECM on the flat), Nottingham, Leceister, Hinckley, Nuneaton, and Birmingham. Would I be correct in assuming it would 'turn left' coming out of Cleethorpes and run via Market Rasen to Lincoln?
The Bournmouth train would go forward from Birmingham NS with Black 5, the Red 'uns (Jubilees) were not permitted over the S&DJR until restrictions were eased to allow specials, Bulleid WC (unrebuilt and rebuilt) and even rebuilt MN, I understand, near closure.
I doubt the refreshment facilities would have much business coming down from Cleethorpes - everybody would still be getting over the previous night's fish & chips, which I understand are exceptionally good up there! Back from Brum it would be different.
If you fancy an unusual sight including Bulleid engines, try Plate 108 in Hibbs book.
Thanks again, kind regards
cameronian
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:54 pm
by rob237
cameronian wrote:...Thanks for the information....The Bournmouth train would go forward from Birmingham NS with Black 5, the Red 'uns (Jubilees) were not permitted over the S&DJR until restrictions were eased to allow specials, Bulleid WC (unrebuilt and rebuilt) and even rebuilt MN, I understand, near closure...
Surely the NS attached loco would invariably be changed at Bath Green Park for S&DJR locomotion, and
vice versa...as happened with the
Pines Express, which was often Jubilee or Patriot hauled through the Midlands.
Cheers
Robt P.
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:22 am
by Pyewipe Junction
Here's some more information, from the September 1951 LMR timetable:
Cleethorpes 0652 2127
Lincoln St M 0830 1950
Nottingham 0920 1858
Leicester 1000 1755
Hinckley 1031 1734
Nuneaton 1040 1723
Birmingham 1113 1645.
The train stopped at a few stations between Lincoln and Nottingham and, as you can see, was hardly an 'express'! Interestingly, the timetable I got the times from is dated '10 September 1951 until further notice', so this implies that the train ran all year round at this point.
Durham Ox/Pelham Street Junctions are essentially in the same place and were both controlled by Pelham Street box AFAIK.
I'm told that in 1956/57 the B1 failed at Market Rasen and a D11 was called on to take the train as far as Nottingham!
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 10:27 pm
by cameronian
Sorry Rob237, I was not specific enough. The reason a Red 'Un couldn't work over the S&D was that it actually couldn't get to Bath Green Park to be changed. The restrictions were bridges just south of Mangotsfield Station. Most of my observations of the 'Pines' at Birmingham NS seem to be double headed Black 5, or Compound/2P + Black 5. The Jubilee & Patriot workings were from Bristol to Leeds, which did not pass over the weak bridges south of mangotsfield Station/Junctions.
As I said, later on some heavier metal did get to Green Park from the north, I think I have a phot of a Rebuilt Scot there. But this is an LNER forum!!
OK, if at present the rake composition isn't known, could I have a bit of general information about LNER stock and practices.
For example, did the teak stock switch to carmine & cream quickly or did the teak linger on until overall maroon became standard about 1957? Can any body remember what teak stock looked like as it weathered? Particularly on the older secondary stock this might have been the case, because 'management effort' could have been directed at 'prestige trains' and 'corporate image'. Certainly ex-LMS stock switched relatively quickly, including the secondary stock, at least from my usual vantage point between Nuneaton & Atherstone on the Trent Valley line.
Would this service have also moved the odd loaded fish van as NPCV from Grimsby down to the S.W. as a tail load? If so, what type of vehicle might this be Bogie, 6 wheel, or 4 wheel?Or were the fish trains always block loads sent over the GC, onto the London Extension, down to Woodford Halse and thence to Banbury & the S.W.
There is so much to learn about a different company and the way it worked, isn't there?
Kind regards
cameronian
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:31 pm
by Atlantic 3279
I don't know the specific services, nor whether the one that is of direct interest to you might be included, but I believe that if you get the right person on here to notice your question you may even get confirmation that the "tail traffic" of fish vans amounted to a greater part of the train than the passenger coaches on some of the Midlands-bound services by the time they left Grimsby Docks station / East Marsh sidings (the convenient place for attachment of fish dock traffic between Cleethorpes and Grimsby Town).
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:08 am
by jwealleans
Have you tried the Yahoo coaching stock group? Robert Carroll also posts on here and on RMWeb.
The Yahoo LNER group may also be worth a try.
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:33 am
by strang steel
Pyewipe Junction wrote:Here's some more information, from the September 1951 LMR timetable:
Cleethorpes 0652 2127
Lincoln St M 0830 1950
Nottingham 0920 1858
Leicester 1000 1755
Hinckley 1031 1734
Nuneaton 1040 1723
Birmingham 1113 1645.
The train stopped at a few stations between Lincoln and Nottingham and, as you can see, was hardly an 'express'! Interestingly, the timetable I got the times from is dated '10 September 1951 until further notice', so this implies that the train ran all year round at this point.
Durham Ox/Pelham Street Junctions are essentially in the same place and were both controlled by Pelham Street box AFAIK.
I'm told that in 1956/57 the B1 failed at Market Rasen and a D11 was called on to take the train as far as Nottingham!
I dont know if this is from the same occasion, but the third photo down on this page shows D11 62662 heading a train of SR stock which appears to have a set number of 275.
http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/ ... orpes2.htm
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 12:05 pm
by Blink Bonny
LNER engine did occasionally work to Green Park. I have a picture of a B1 on Green Park shed in about 62.
There is a story, sadly unconfirmed, that a V2 worked through to Bournemouth in 1944, during the build up to D-Day. They were also banned after Mangotsfield but went through anyway, due to failures en route. The same happened at Bath, so it was put on a troop train where the driver declared it a first class engine! Is it mere coincidence that Charlton Road viaduct's southbound side collapsed in 1946?
Anyway, that's my excuse for 2 V2s in my collection!
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:23 am
by strang steel
I know this is slightly off topic, but I have just been looking at a list of excursions that arrived at Cleethorpes on a summer Sunday in 1958.
In all there were 27 (this list does not include ordinary timetabled services), and B1s predominated. They arrived on 15 of the 27 trains.
Rather surprisingly, K3s only appeared on 3 (61980 on the 10:50 arrival from Bulwell, 61891 on the 12:30 arr from Woodhouse and 61896 on the 13:37 arr from Rotherham).
The first two specials to arrive, at 09:45 and 10:30 from Whitwell and Elmton respectively, had J11 haulage. 64427 and 64379 doing the honours on those services.
The 14:45 arrival from Clay Cross had 45062, which was the only ex-LMS interloper that day, and the arrival from Nottingham with no time annotated was formed of "diesel units".
The D11s put in no less that 4 appearances that day;
62665 on the 11:20 arr from Sheffield.
62664 on the 13:25 arr from Chesterfield.
62669 on the 13:35 arr from Darnall.
62668 on the 14:05 arr from Shirebrook.
It is amazing how the railway staff coped with all these extra trains on a regular basis, and I just wish I could have been a local spotter on the station at the time to witness all the comings and goings.
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 6:58 pm
by JeffB
Strang Steel, I lived at Cleethorpes, alongside the railway when I was young, and one Sunday in the early 50s I can remember upwards of 70 specials running into Cleethorpes. The stock was being stabled as far out as West Marsh sidings. Everything being used for power, Pom Poms, J39s, B1s, K3s, Black Fives, Directors, etc. The shunter at Cleethorpes, a guy called ? Osborne used to have a field day, dont think he went home all day, although saying that he only had to nip over Suggits Lane crossing.
The Birmingham train did occasionally have Green southern region coaches on it, as it went through to Bournemouth in the summer and have known on occasions when the green stock was stabled at Suggits Lane sidings all the week, to return south the following Saturday. My family did travel on it once to Bournemouth for a holiday, the day seemed endless.
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 5:47 pm
by Trafford Park
Pyewipe Junction wrote:This train is of interest to Lincolnians also as it was (to my knowledge) the only regular passenger train to use the short section of ex-GC line between Pelham Street Junction and Lincoln St Mark's until the Newark chord was connected, making this the main line from Newark to Cleethorpes. British Main Line Services in the Age of Steam mentions that it was introduced as a summer train in the late 1930s, so that may answer one of your questions. It was re-introduced after WWII and ran until the early 1960s (not sure when it was discontinued). I think it may have originated as a GC/MR service.
In summer 1959 the train left Cleethorpes at 0700, arriving Birmingham New Street at 1113, 1650 and 2128 in the other direction. BUT SO it was extended to and from Bournemouth West (arr 1648, dep 1140). I always thought it went via Derby, Tamworth and the S&DJR, but your sightings of it confirm it went via Leicester. Apparently in 1960 there were also through coaches to Sidmouth and Exmouth.
There is no indication in my ER timetable that there were any refreshment facilities provided, at least from Cleethorpes to Birmingham. Perhaps after Birmingham, but I doubt it, given the pathetic state of BR's catering facilities in those days.
I'm glad you enjoyed seeing the Immingham B1s. They must have been among the most travelled of the class, what with their duties on the London expresses and the fish trains as well. And yes, 40B always turned out a decent loco, even towards the end. Any idea what took over at Birmingham - a 5 or a Jube perhaps?
Don't be nervous here. Speaking for myself I find the parochialism associated with the steam age to be pathetic. I even like Bulleid locos!
Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 8:16 pm
by robertcwp
The Summer 1954 ER (Western Division) carriage workings list only LMR stock for this service. Mon-Fri seems to have been a single set on an out and back working, formed BTK, TK, CK, TK, BTK, strengthened on Fridays with BTK, 4 TK for the Birmingham-Cleethorpes return leg. A second set of stock was used on Saturdays, when the train ran through to/from Bournemouth West, again in strengthened formation. It's not 100% clear from the workings but it appears that the Monday-Friday set swapped over with the one used on Saturdays only on a weekly basis.