GN Electric Units

[manna]

G'Day Gents

For many years the old GNR and LNER promised to electrify the lines out of Kings Cross, was any work done ? such as drawings of the units or locos, just wondering if we could have had some teak units working to Hatfield, Hertford and Highgate.

manna

[2512silverfox]

If you look carefully at the later quad arts, you will see where it was intended to place the switchgear etc next to the brake van. It appears as a virtual compartment. As we all know nothing ever happened!

[manna]

G'Day Gents

Electric 'Quad Arts' now that would have been an interesting sight,(Third rail I presume) that would have allowed through workings to the Southern...............Hitchin-Brighton??????? and could we have had Green units at this end, what a 'might have been'

manna

[Saint Johnstoun]

The original GNR scheme was mooted in 1902, and held in abeyance but the 1923-4 quad arts were designed to take motor bogies on the outer ends of the sets. The scheme was revived in 1931 and would have involved electrification to Welwyn Garden City, Hertford North and High Barnet. 1500v DC overhead was recommended by the consulting engineers and it was intended to convert forty eight 4 coach sets and built a further twenty four six car sets, the design for new stock would have been based either on the North Tyneside stock or a development of that design which was eventually used for the Glossop and Shenfield stock.

The whole scheme was stifled by the expansion of the Underground, in fact the LNER owned some Tube Stock. The Cockfosters extension and later proposals for High Barnet and Edgware resulted in the LNER abandoning the plans, agreeing to eliminate wasteful competition and pool receipts.

[Blink Bonny]

Being a northern-assembed '66 job I never saw the quad arts so I must visit the North Norfolk...

A fascinting thought. Wooden bodied, articulated EMUs. Could have been Gresley's legacy?

[Saint Johnstoun]

If you bear with me for a few days, a graphic of what the 'electified' quad arts looked like will be posted.

[hq1hitchin]

If you bear with me for a few days, a graphic of what the 'electified' quad arts looked like will be posted.

Glad to see you back at the drawing board, you've been missed

[Stirling O]

Hi Everyone,

For those interested, Chapter 1 of the book 'Electrifying the East Coast Route' written by Peter Semmens, and published by Patrick Stephens Limited in 1991 (ISBN 0-85059-929-6), goes into great detail about the proposed GNR 1903 suburban electrification scheme.

Included in the chapter is a route diagram, proposed timetable and drawings of the proposed rolling stock for the GNR scheme. The chapter also covers the NER Tynside electrification scheme of 1904 and the 1919 proposals for the York to Newcastle electrification scheme.

[StevieG]

For what it's worth, very many moons ago (around 1980 I think), I was once shown a part of one of several rolled up plan prints from somewhere in the King's Cross Area Manager's office, which showed extensive track layout changes at King's Cross (including several loco spurs north of the platforms) and northwards to at least Holloway, in connection with a never-done electrification scheme ; from around the early 1950's I think. This was presumably part of the one-time great BR Modernisation Plan, where the LNWR main line got electrified but the GN didn't. I think a large new train depot would have beeen involved, on or around East Goods Yard (on the 'up side', S. of Finsbury Park).
The plans were being carefully stored then, but what could have happened to them now?

So it only took about 74 years for GN suburban electrification to become a reality; Almost the same, and not by coincidence then, I suspect, that it was about 72 years before the Great Northern & City Railway's main-line gauge-sized tube tunnels first saw passenger trains running from and to the 'main line' at Finsbury Park.

[Andy W]

Well Steve, a set of large (& fragile) prints are in my loft. These are actually the electrification set, complete apart from Welwyn GC. They were recovered from GN House when it shut - found in a cupboard on the second floor in the outdoor machinery section office. I was an ODM man at the time so was detailed to clear the office - a legit job! I also recovered a complete set of ER (GN) mechanical standing orders, which came in handy a few years later when 60007 needed an obscure clearance checked.

They were done in the late 1950's & early 1960's when, under the modernisation scheme, it looked like the GN suburban electrification was going to be done. At KX quite a few changes were planned. As the widened line services were planned to come off (apart from the freights) the Pass Loco was going to be transfered to the east side and the power box was to be situated on the site of the pass loco, by the tunnels. There was going to some remodelling of the suburban side to accomodate the longer trains and a couple of sidings would have remained in the pass loco to act as headshunts to the remodelled milk dock as well as the diesel fuel oil off loading area - it would be piped across underground from the existing tanks.

East Goods was indeed going to be the depot for the EMUs with a washer put in on the upside to the south roughly parallel to where the emirates stadium is now. It was also going to be the site of the depot in the late 1960's plan, which eventually came to fruition, apart from that depot site! The National Freight Plan saw the end of Ferme Park Up as a freight yard and, as we know, the EMU depot went there.

You can see how the signalling technology moved on within just a few years as the next power box was planned to be at Finsbury Park.

[Saint Johnstoun]

Here is a drawing as promised. The units would have to be dual voltage to operate into Moorgate, hence the collector shoes. Easy enough to arrange with 1500v as the traction motors were 750 volt and by suitable switching they could operate on either.

[The extension bmp has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

[manna]

G'Day Gents

You little ripper! I was wondering how they would get down to Moorgate, if they were 1500v overhead, so there would have been a chance of through workings.

Now all we need is a computer whiz to add the pans to the Quad Arts at Sheringham, then superimpose so there coming out of Gasworks tunnel, any takers ??? pretty please

manna

[Blink Bonny]

Pass me my modelling tools - I feel a project coming on.

Mrs BB: no you don't, I'm hiding them until sanity returns.

BB: could be a long wait...

[Saint Johnstoun]

All you need is an Ian Kirk Quad Art Kit!

I have Altringham and Watford sets in build (carved up Airfix) but got diverted onto other projects.

[65447]

Well Steve, a set of large (& fragile) prints are in my loft. These are actually the electrification set, complete apart from Welwyn GC. They were recovered from GN House when it shut - found in a cupboard on the second floor in the outdoor machinery section office. I was an ODM man at the time so was detailed to clear the office - a legit job! I also recovered a complete set of ER (GN) mechanical standing orders, which came in handy a few years later when 60007 needed an obscure clearance checked.

They were done in the late 1950's & early 1960's when, under the modernisation scheme, it looked like the GN suburban electrification was going to be done. At KX quite a few changes were planned. As the widened line services were planned to come off (apart from the freights) the Pass Loco was going to be transfered to the east side and the power box was to be situated on the site of the pass loco, by the tunnels. There was going to some remodelling of the suburban side to accomodate the longer trains and a couple of sidings would have remained in the pass loco to act as headshunts to the remodelled milk dock as well as the diesel fuel oil off loading area - it would be piped across underground from the existing tanks.

You may will find John Edgson's initials on some of them, he was in one of the New Works Sections in CCEs KX and was working on the GN Electrification during the first half of the 1960s.