LNE Region 'Widened Lines' stock

[39ATank]

Researching 'Widened Lines' operations, especially to/from Moorgate station. Can anyone identify the passenger stock type drawn by the usual N2's in the late 50's? Was it Thompson or BR stock? And what was the colour - BR maroon or crimson? Did the N2's work on 'captive loco' system for train turn-round, like the LMR did? If not, how did the turn-round work? Was there a fixed-direction loco orientation for north- and south-bound trains?

[2512silverfox]

Have you read Geof Goslin's book on the lines in question. This should answer most queries and is well illustrated.

[Beechwood]

Stock was GN and LNER quad-arts, supplemented by BR suburban stock and Cravens DMUs.

Steam locos generally, if not always, faced in the same direction - northwards.

There were no run-round facilities at Moorgate, so there had to be a loco already waiting take out each incoming train.

All stock was crimson in early BR days (though the ex-LNER stock would have taken a while to paint) but would gradually have been repainted maroon - though some quad arts were retired in crimson.

[Eightpot]

Am I correct in believing that the BR suburban Mk. 1 stock replaced the earlier GN Quad-Arts, thus leaving the later ones with Gresley bogies running until the DMUs came on the scene?

[Beechwood]

Am I correct in believing that the BR suburban Mk. 1 stock replaced the earlier GN Quad-Arts, thus leaving the later ones with Gresley bogies running until the DMUs came on the scene?

The final LNER quad arts didn't go until 1966, several years after the first DMUs were introduced. It is possible that BR suburban stock replaced the GN quad arts, as many seem to have been withdrawn in the 1950s. Some of the BR suburban stock came secondhand in the 1960s from other regions.

I assume a lot of the GNR quad arts were withdrawn when the LPTB took over a lot of the inner suburban branch lines - but it's only a guess.

[65447]

Am I correct in believing that the BR suburban Mk. 1 stock replaced the earlier GN Quad-Arts, thus leaving the later ones with Gresley bogies running until the DMUs came on the scene?

A number of the 'suburban' Mk 1 carriages were constructed to the 'Metrogauge' profile which permitted their use over the Widened Lines.

[Beechwood]

A number of the 'suburban' Mk 1 carriages were constructed to the 'Metrogauge' profile which permitted their use over the Widened Lines.

I had an idea that these were for the Midland line services, rather than the GN line. It mentions this in the BR Mk1 coaches book. The difference was in the ventilators on the roof, rather than a change in the profile of the bodywork.

[robertcwp]

'Metrogauge' Mark I non-gangwayed stock was for the Midland Line, in spite of things written to the contrary in various places. Confusion arises because some other Mark I non-gangwayed stock had the wide spacing of roof vents, ie further away from the roof centre line than on a gangwayed Mark I, so all such stock is wrongly assumed to be 'Metrogauge' and stock with the narrow spacing wrongly assumed to have been banned from the Widened Lines via the GN (it was not).

The survival of some Quad-arts into the mid-1960s was due at least in part to capacity issues. A set of two Quad-arts seated many more passengers than what was then the standard GN inner-suburban Mark I formation of BS, 3 S, BS (ie five vehicles). The Mark I sets did not have the capacity for the busiest trains.

Apart from their age, one factor that contributed to the final demise of the Quad-arts was the reconstruction of Moorgate station in the mid-1960s when a new alignment between there and Barbican (formerly Aldersgate) was built. This straightened out Moorgate station and increased the platform length. Hence, six Mark I non-gangwayed vehicles could be accommodated instead of five. Add to this a change in the formations to having one brake in the middle instead of one at each end and the capacity of a Mark I set went up considerably (12 extra compartments in all).

Platform length issues were not confined to Moorgate. The two suburban platforms outside the suburban train shed at King's Cross (14 and 15 prior to the 1972 renumbering I believe) were built to the length of a pair of Quad-arts with an N2 at each end. Hence, they could not accommodate 6 short-frame Mark Is with a Brush Type 2 at each end without fouling the points. On what was Platform 16 (later 14) - the line up from the Hotel Curve, if I recall correctly, the loco was off the end of the platform when a six-coach train stopped, and the two rear coaches carried labels advising passengers wishing to alight at King's Cross not to travel in those vehicles because the south end of the platform was very narrow.

Some outer suburban stations also had very short platforms, which is why the normal outer suburban sets including lavatory vehicles had an SLO (Second Lavatory Open) at the north end. These were the only 'open' non-gangwayed Mark Is on the GN where a passenger could walk the length of the carriage - necessary if some doors were off the platform. Even the lavatory composites, of BR and LNER designs, did not have through access from end to end of the vehicle.

[StevieG]

" .... Platform length issues were not confined to Moorgate. The two suburban platforms outside the suburban train shed at King's Cross (14 and 15 prior to the 1972 renumbering I believe) were built to the length of a pair of Quad-arts with an N2 at each end. Hence, they could not accommodate 6 short-frame Mark Is with a Brush Type 2 at each end without fouling the points. On what was Platform 16 (later 14) - the line up from the Hotel Curve, if I recall correctly, .... "

Robert,
All your KX platform numbering quoted here is correct, with 14 & 15 later being renumbered to 12 & 13.

[Dave]

Whilst looking through old copies of the MRJ for somthing else, I found an article on widened lines N2's with a further piece on converting the Mainline model. It's Model Railway Journal 20 of 1988, if anyone is interested.

[robertcwp]

By the late 1950s, diesels were taking over, though the Class 26s (as they later became) did not remain on the GN for long:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/ ... hotostream

The stock is one of the 5-coach BR Standard inner-suburban sets, formed BS, S, S, S, BS.