Most (all?) of the books which deal with LNER Gresley carriages agree on how to finish a coach in the period up to 1939... and that the livery / lining was simplified in the ensuing years. However, I am not sure that I can find a consensus when it comes to the finish of Gresley teaks in the post-war period. For those who have followed our various threads here and on RM Web my son and I are building some JLTRT 7mm Gresley 61'6" carriages... and the first body is getting close to the point where the carriage gets passed to the painter.... "just what colour?" and "how lettered and lined?" have been some of his questions.
The set of carriages are to be finished as running in the summer of 1948 on services between Edinburgh and Aberdeen.... I think that means that we can have "refreshed" teak as the body colour. I think that I have read that roofs were grey in the post-war period - might there have been a different colour used in the period 1940-46? I think that solebars and headstock were in teak-colour paint at this time.... was the same paint used for wheel centres? Whilst tyres and axles were white in the 1930s I feel that such an embellishment might have been dropped by 1948.... there seems to be no comment on this point in the published works.
The handed-down wisdom seems to be that lining was omitted by the period of interest... although I recall a thread here or on RM Web which indicated that some Gresley coaches were lined after 1945. Clarification of this point is desirable.
Lettering and numbering? How would this have appeared compared to the 1930s?
Your assistance and advice will be much appreciated, regards, Graham Beare
Gresley teaks - a question of livery
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2512silverfox
Re: Gresley teaks - a question of livery
I have been meaning to answer this for some days, but have now had a moment to address some of your queries.
Most of the answers are in the livery section of HCD Vol 1 which I think you have. The only reservation I have about this is that Doncaster began painting roofs white again after the was on Thompson stock, but I have no definate evidence of that being the case with Gresley stock although I cannot think that there would have been a different approach - in any case roofs became 'grey' within a very short space of time.
The prewar 'teak' paint areas were the same up to early 1948 as were the wheel rims and axles, but again for a short time only once in service.
The lettereing used the same transfers for LNER (reintroduced in 1945/6) and the number, while 1st only was shown on doors. BR used the same for a while sometimes with no ownership and an 'E' prefix before the number. Eventually a Gill Sans type letter was introduced, but this was not until late 1948 early 1949.
Gresley stock was quite late being repainted into red and cream mainly becuse of the problems which the works encountered from the lack of adhesion of most types of paint to a varnished teak finish.
Most of the answers are in the livery section of HCD Vol 1 which I think you have. The only reservation I have about this is that Doncaster began painting roofs white again after the was on Thompson stock, but I have no definate evidence of that being the case with Gresley stock although I cannot think that there would have been a different approach - in any case roofs became 'grey' within a very short space of time.
The prewar 'teak' paint areas were the same up to early 1948 as were the wheel rims and axles, but again for a short time only once in service.
The lettereing used the same transfers for LNER (reintroduced in 1945/6) and the number, while 1st only was shown on doors. BR used the same for a while sometimes with no ownership and an 'E' prefix before the number. Eventually a Gill Sans type letter was introduced, but this was not until late 1948 early 1949.
Gresley stock was quite late being repainted into red and cream mainly becuse of the problems which the works encountered from the lack of adhesion of most types of paint to a varnished teak finish.
Re: Gresley teaks - a question of livery
Does anyone recall seeing an unpainted coach in sidings at Stanningley near Leeds in the late fities/early sixties?
Re: Gresley teaks - a question of livery
It is clear from photos that the official postwar livery as specified for Thompson coaches was not adhered to with Gresley teak coaches. Ex-works Gresleys with lining out and white roofs can be found in books after nationalization. In otherwords, the Big four companies continued painting coaches in company colours while awaiting instructions to do otherwise. The railways carried on as before, as indeed they had to, and it is doubtful if nationalisation made any impact for the first week or so.
Any changes only affected the paintshop anyway. Probably the first instruction was to not apply company markings and the put a M, S, W or E near the loco and coach running number. Whilst Nationalization was not always well-recieved, the rank and file were no doubt proud to show off their own company liveries as a final fling. And lets face it, there was nothing to touch a well finished white-roofed Gresley coach in all its lined out finery.
BR Gill Sans insignia was adopted some time before the new BR coach colours were settled on hence their application to Teak, Maroon, Green and choc & cream coaches.
I believe April-May 1949 was the cut-off point when painting in company colours went over to the new BR colours of carmine red/carmine & cream in time for the summer season.
I should add that this was not the end for company paint. I know of LNWR coaches that were repainted in LMS maroon circa 1952. It is well-known many LNER constituent company coaches (GE and GCR for example) were maintained in varnished teak or plain brown paint well into BR days too.
Any changes only affected the paintshop anyway. Probably the first instruction was to not apply company markings and the put a M, S, W or E near the loco and coach running number. Whilst Nationalization was not always well-recieved, the rank and file were no doubt proud to show off their own company liveries as a final fling. And lets face it, there was nothing to touch a well finished white-roofed Gresley coach in all its lined out finery.
BR Gill Sans insignia was adopted some time before the new BR coach colours were settled on hence their application to Teak, Maroon, Green and choc & cream coaches.
I believe April-May 1949 was the cut-off point when painting in company colours went over to the new BR colours of carmine red/carmine & cream in time for the summer season.
I should add that this was not the end for company paint. I know of LNWR coaches that were repainted in LMS maroon circa 1952. It is well-known many LNER constituent company coaches (GE and GCR for example) were maintained in varnished teak or plain brown paint well into BR days too.