Black Five Experts Help Required. 44911 As Loaned to Kings X

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

I am after information relating to the Stanier Black Five 44911 which was moved from Chester to 34A Kings Cross Top Shed in the 1950's for testing with ATC Equipment.I wish to obtain a model in "O" Gauge of said 44911 but need some clarification on one point.I do know for sure that at this time it had the Welded Tender and that the Top Feed & Dome were seperate items as opposed to being a combined unit. My real Problem is knowing very little about this class of locomotive I am unsure of my facts regarding the type of Boiler/Firebox fitted at this time. I believe it had the Longer firebox with topfeed at the Second Ring of the Boiler as I do not think that such an arrangement of Topfeed/Dome was ever used with the Shorter Firebox, it is my understanding that the Shorter Firebox always hed the combined Dome/Topfeed arrangement.
Any help very much appreciated.
Regards,Derek.

[Eightpot]

Remenber this loco from then living at Brookmans Park. Regular job was to double head with a bunker first L1 on the 5.52 p.m. (?) from KX to, I believe Cambridge and Peterborough, the train dividing at Hitchin. Perhaps others can confirm this.Certain I photted it, but whether I can lay my hands on it is another matter.

Not greatly into LMS things, but it is one of the later constructed ones so would most likely have had the late type boiler.

[James Brodie]

Sirs Was the KX Black five in black or red? 'cos my 0 gauge black five No 4911 is in red!

[Flamingo]

44911 was in BR black, definitely not red during its stay at 34A. Like Eightpot I also remember it working on the ECML, usually on the Cambridge trains though it may well have had turns on the Peterborough service too. At about the same time there was also a Fowler 2-6-4T on loan to 34A, from memory it was 42374 but I daresay someone can confirm or correct that.

[Eightpot]

There was a second Fowler 2-6-4 around for a time at KX, this was 42328. Another oddity seen around Easter 1958 was ex GC A5 4-6-2T 69824 which I think was on trial with ECS workings out of KX. Not forgetting the couple of BR Standard 5 4-6-0s at KX plus a dozen or so J94s that turned up at Hornsey as replacements for J50s.

[60129 GUY MANNERING]

I do believe it was ex GC A5 4-6-2T 69814 which I think was on trial with ECS workings out of KX. This was a Grantham engine that was borrowed (Re-allocated) to see if it coped better with the heavy Sleeper Trains up Holloway Bank in the mornings than the L1's who were always prone to slipping,but exagerated even their fault on these workings.The allocation of BR Standard 5 4-6-0s at KX was in fact 73071 from January 1957 to May 1957 and then 73157,73158 and 73159 from September 1957 until October 1958.The Black Five 44911 was on Loan (Re-allocated) from January 1957 to May 1957. Also 69814 was allocated to 34A from December 1959 until June 1960.
Thanks to all for the help with this query.
Regards.

[Pyewipe Junction]

I do believe it was ex GC A5 4-6-2T 69814 which I think was on trial with ECS workings out of KX. This was a Grantham engine that was borrowed (Re-allocated) to see if it coped better with the heavy Sleeper Trains up Holloway Bank in the mornings than the L1's who were always prone to slipping,but exagerated even their fault on these workings.The allocation of BR Standard 5 4-6-0s at KX was in fact 73071 from January 1957 to May 1957 and then 73157,73158 and 73159 from September 1957 until October 1958.The Black Five 44911 was on Loan (Re-allocated) from January 1957 to May 1957. Also 69814 was allocated to 34A from December 1959 until June 1960.
Thanks to all for the help with this query.
Regards.

Thanks for this information on 69814. I always thought the allocation to 34A shown in the 1960 Locoshed Book was a mistake, until a saw a photo of it at KX in front of some empty stock.

The A5s must surely be one of the best fast passenger tanks that ran on the LNER or anywhere else for that matter. Lincoln always had an allocation of at least two from the early 1950s to 1960 and I well remember them at the end of their careers on pick-up goods to Horncastle and elsewhere. They also replaced Johnson 1P 0-4-4 58065 on the Southwell Paddy shortly before its withdrawal - quite a come-down for a loco designed for the very difficult fast outer suburban services out of Marylebone!

What a pity none was preserved. But we can say that about most ex-GC locos, except for Butler-Henderson and the O4 that was saved by the skin of its teeth!

[Mickey]

Sirs Was the KX Black five in black or red? 'cos my 0 gauge black five No 4911 is in red!

I did hear tell on an L.M.S. steam locomotives dvd that the RED painted BLACK 5s were also known as L.M.S. RED 5s as opposed to there better known cousins the L.M.S. BLACK 5s but were better known in there own right later on by locomen and spotter's as JUBILEES.

[52D]

Aye jim i like your sense of humour

[JeffB]

69814 was the A5 at Kings Cross. I have a photo of it stood in what I think was platform 12. I have records of 5 of the J94s at Hornsey, 68033/67/73/75/77, all ex Immingham, they are what I did my early firing on before moving to Topshed. Two which nobody seems to have mentioned, in the Summer 1958, two Standard 4 2-6-4T were sent on loan as possible L1 replacements. 80103 and 80137. I think the idea was to use them on the 17:39 as far as Hitchin, which was double headed and split up at Hitchin for Cambridge and Peterborough. About the same time the restrictions were lifted on the working of L1s in and out of Broad Street.

[James Brodie]

As an A5 was mentioned , here is a photo of my 0 gauge model.

[Blink Bonny]

I did hear tell on an L.M.S. steam locomotives dvd that the RED painted BLACK 5s were also known as L.M.S. RED 5s as opposed to there better known cousins the L.M.S. BLACK 5s but were better known in there own right later on by locomen and spotter's as JUBILEES.

Hmm. The Jubilees, 8Fs and Black 5s were originally to have interchangeable boilers but Stanier changed his mind rather early on in the design process with the result thatall 3 had unique boilers. The chassis were very different. The Jubilee had three cylinders with each cylinder having an independent set of Walscheart valve gear. Originally classified 5XP, under BR they necame 6Ps and were red initially then black before becoming GWR green (pardon the swearword there - but it was!). The 5s and 8Fs were two cylinder machines with 6 foot wheels for the 4-6-0 (Class 5) and 4 ft 8 1/2 inches for the 2-8-0 (8Fs).

OK, that's that out of the way. Now to the original question. 44911 wasa typical, late production Crewe machine. It had a sloping throatplate boiler with dome and top feed on the tapered ring of the boiler, rather than the forward mounted ones of the later, Ivatt-modified boilers.

For some reason, I know not why, only the vacuum tank on the fireman's side, immediately in front of the cab is visible on a standard Black 5 although this link: http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/display/7222878 will take you to a picture taken at Preston about 1967 where, as you will see, the reservoir is not visible, giving a virtually invisible AWS fit.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

[strang steel]

69814 was the A5 at Kings Cross. I have a photo of it stood in what I think was platform 12. I have records of 5 of the J94s at Hornsey, 68033/67/73/75/77, all ex Immingham, they are what I did my early firing on before moving to Topshed. Two which nobody seems to have mentioned, in the Summer 1958, two Standard 4 2-6-4T were sent on loan as possible L1 replacements. 80103 and 80137. I think the idea was to use them on the 17:39 as far as Hitchin, which was double headed and split up at Hitchin for Cambridge and Peterborough. About the same time the restrictions were lifted on the working of L1s in and out of Broad Street.

The A5 topic was discussed on page 22 of the Returning To Grantham thread, and this was the conclusion that I came to after a little research:-

"The A5s (there were two tried apparently, 69814 and 69824 ) were there to trial on the ECS of the overnight sleeper services which had to be taken back to the carriage sidings, but did not have the power required for Wood Green bank. B1s were also tried, and it would seem that double heading was the only answer. Peter Townend alludes to a request for ex-GWR 2-8-0 tanks to be tried (which would have really put the cat amongst the pigeons) but none ever turned up.

There is a photo of 69814 at Kings Cross shed in the book Top Shed, and one of 69824 standing on the loco spur by Gasworks Tunnel in the book BR Steaming On The East Coast Main Line."

[manna]

G'Day Gents

If I remember correctly 80103 was the first or a very early withdrawal for having both of it's frames cracked ? and was only held together by the boiler and connecting rods, I know it was dumped at Stratford for a while

manna

[50C]

Just been looking through some old railway mags and in Steam World(Feb 2001) there is a photo of 44911 piloting 67785 on the 4.21pm to Royston just about to leave KX on August 31 1956.

50c