The LNER Encyclopedia

As there has been many a debate about smoke deflectors for Flying Scotsman. I agree that the German style look hideous. But what about ones similar to those on Tornado and Blue Peter.

I ask this because I have a book called "Great Railway Photographs of Eric Treacy" compiled by G. Freeman Allen. Published 1987.

ISBN 1 85052 095 X

Not a single LNER A3 (even in BR livery) had any smoke deflectors (in that particular book).

My opinion either none or like the ones shown on the peppercorn A2
http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a1a3a10.shtml

Thoughts

Not a good picture but here is 60097 as she ran for many years.

Any idea of the working Millerhill - Tyne Yard perhaps and returning engine and van to St Margarets.

Could be, or maybe going to pick up a back working from somewhere further north, alas lost in the mists of time!

falcons1988 wrote:As there has been many a debate about smoke deflectors for Flying Scotsman. I agree that the German style look hideous. But what about ones similar to those on Tornado and Blue Peter.........My opinion either none or like the ones shown on the peppercorn A2

Thoughts

The German style smoke deflectors were a small price to pay for the rejuvenation of the A3s. The fitting of double chimneys in the late fifties gave the locos a second wind but BR then found they had the same problem as the LNER had had with 97. The soft exhaust caused smoke and steam to hang in drifting clouds around the boiler obscuring the driver's view ahead. Four of the class had small deflector plates fitted to the top of the smokebox, as had been tried on Humorist, but these were pretty ineffective. It was, we are told, Peter Townend (the boss at 34A) who suggested trying the German style deflectors. (They are called Witte deflectors in Germany - after their designer - they replaced the earlier Wagner style, which were like a huge version of the ones fitted to the Brits) These solved the problem. The books suggest that the Witte deflectors were the most efficient. The DB fitted all their pacifics with them as they were so much better than the original "elephant's ears".

Which deflectors look better must be a matter of personal opinion but it's undeniable that the double chimneys transformed the A3s, and smoke deflectors really had to follow.

It has been said before - I think that the NRM really ought to give The Scotsman's livery further thought. If the loco is to retain the double chimney then for authenticity it should be in BR green with the later emblem on the tender - apple green is an anachronism.

Chaz

Being a bit radical Chaz even though I agree with you.

I do not normally enter into the livery debates that seem to be part of almost every loco restoration, but in this case I agree with Chaz and 52D, if Scotsman is to be restored with the double chimney then it must be in BR green and be fitted with the witte deflectors, after all this is the condition that most of us will remember it in when in service and it represents the zenith of A3 development. The only other reasonable thing would be to present it in "as built" form and livery.

Is that Third rail on the sleeper ends?

Certainly looks like a rail mounted on 'pots', even though the angle of view makes its top, and that of the nearest running rail, virtually lined up with each other, and the running rail switch chairs are visible below & behind it.
Well spotted! And with a SB behind the loco, these factors surely narrow the possible number of locations considerably.

This is Benton Quarry looking north, the loco is passing over the south to east curve junction. This area was electrified as part of the North Tyneside scheme.

chaz harrison wrote: It has been said before - I think that the NRM really ought to give The Scotsman's livery further thought. If the loco is to retain the double chimney then for authenticity it should be in BR green with the later emblem on the tender - apple green is an anachronism.

Chaz

Or how about the same livery as tornado.

Everyone compains of the smoke deflectors in LNER livery, but no one mentions of the big chunk on the back, that bit what carries coal and water, in BR livery (if we go for authenticity now) it never had a corridor tender!

silver fox wrote:Everyone compains of the smoke deflectors in LNER livery, but no one mentions of the big chunk on the back, that bit what carries coal and water, in BR livery (if we go for authenticity now) it never had a corridor tender!

You are quite right, but short of building a new tender there is not much to be done about it. However it would be straightforward to paint the loco in Swindon Khaki (as my father used to call it).
As for Tornado's livery - it looks excellent in apple green, and I can't wait to see it in BR blue. But it won't do for the Scotsman, just as wrong as the LNER livery.

Chaz

Over the years this topic has come up a multitude of times, and no one ever agrees on the best course to follow.

I would suggest that livery is a moot point for 4472. Since her preservation in 1964, she has carried an A4 boiler which had incorrectly positioned boiler bands (and nobody pointed that out at the time), she has also had fitted a second tender in pseudo LNER livery (which again, no one complained about as she was privately owned!) and in the NRM era, has worn LNER green which is correct for the tender, but not for the engine herself, as has been commented on in this thread by many people.

Far be it from me to point this out, but Flying Scotsman may or not appear in a single chimney form. This is the one peice of information that the NRM have, wisely perhaps, kept close to their chests throughout the long and arduous task of returning her to steam. If she reappears with a single chimney, in LNER green, this will be closest only to her 1946 condition before being renumbered as 103 by Thompson, as her 1923 condition demands a taller chimney, cab and gresley boiler minus the banjo dome, and of course, minus the superheater headers on the smokebox.

In whatever livery she is going to appear, she wil never be completely historically accurate, but, regardless of what livery she appears in, we should be grateful first and foremost that we still have her around as a reminder of what handsome locomotives the Gresley A1s/A3s were/are, and to support her still in whatever hybrid form she may eventually appear.

After all, its not necessarily about the livery, but the history of the locomotive which comes with it.

Addressing the OP's question, the A2 style deflectors were fitted onto Humorist, the only member of the class with these - and, as on the LNER encyclopedia's own website, the first to be fitted with a double chimney. Scotsman if fitted with these could indeed masquerade as Humorist in all three liveries - BR apple green, BR blue and BR Brunswick green. Would we want her to, is another question for another thread, although in Mcalpines hands in the early nineties I recall she masqueraded as another class member for a few days down at Llangollen or similar.

I personally would prefer to see the smoke deflectors removed and a single chimney fitted, for the best looking form of the A3s. However that may not be the best working form for Scotsman on the mainline. If we want her to run railtours mainline, should we not want her in the best condition (ultimately A3 with double chimney and smoke deflectors"?

I think we need to look at this issue from all angles and not necessarily (as trust me, I would like to) from behind the rose tinted spectacles?

Simierski,

I couldn't agree with you more. You make several valid points about the authenticity of 4472 (or should it be 60103?).
Yes, we should be grateful for an A3, in whatever guise it appears. A few years ago I enjoyed a run from York to Scarborough and back with the sound of the 3 cylinder beat drifting back from the front, and enjoyed it immensely. I look forward to seeing the engine running again, especially as we seem to have lost the V2. I must say that Green Arrow is my personal favourite, I do hope the means can be found to restore it - I would contribute were a fund to be organised.

Chaz

PS - doesn't the N2 look good in GNR colours? - is there anybody alive, do you suppose, who can remember the Met tanks in these colours?