Hello everyone.
Although I now live in Wales I was born and brought up in Southend, Essex.
The house I lived in was near Prittlewell station, and my grandparents house was near Southend Victoria. When we visited we always used to walk along the path on the east side of the sidings between Prittlewell and Victoria. I can dimly remember seeing numerous steam engines even though the passenger services had been electrified in 1955 when I was born.
I clearly recall J15 or J17's shunting the private sidings that crossed the path where there was a timber place and a steel stockholders. I can remember they were something with small boilers and long chimneys - probably J15's in fact, and I can remember a J19 or other large boiler 0-6-0 shunting Prittlewell yard.
Also my father worked in Stratford (he had previously worked at Temple Mills yard, but by this time he had left the railway). At this time the firm he worked for still did Saturday mornings and he sometimes used to take me on the train with him. From those journeys I can remember seeing Britannia's, L1's, N7's, J69's, but not much else (though I must have seen other types such as B1's).
My enquiry is - sometime around 1959 or 1960 there were a number of steam locos dumped or stored at the back of the carriage sidings, on the two sidings that later were used by the coal concentration depot. These are locked in my memory, as they were there for some time and apparently I used to pester my old Grandad to take me down to see them (I would have been 4 or 5 at the time).
What I cannot now work out is which engines they were. There was what I now guess must have been a B17 because Grandad insisted it had a name with Castle in it and it certainly had outside cylinders, but I don't remember it being green. Of course it might just have been very dirty. There was an inside cylinder engine with raised running plate, presumably a B12, then two or three 0-6-0's. At the time there were a lot of tank wagons dumped on the same lines that were later broken up on site by a local scrappie, but I assume the locos eventually went to Stratford.
Does anyone have any idea which specific locos these might have been? I'm not exactly sure of the year, but I assume it could not have been later than summer 1960. It could have been a year or maybe two earlier, but I think I'd have been too young to remember them at all before then.
Thanks
Pete
Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
It's amazing what you can find in old notebooks! Looking through my trip notebooks of sheds visited between 1958 and 1961 I found I had copied down from the Railway Observer magazine lists of engines stored at various locations on all regions. I was a member of the RCTS at that time and such information was useful in tracking engines down.
Any way for what it's worth a list of engines stored at Southend Victoria did appear in the R.O. It refers to 1 March 1960. I must stress that these are other people's observations not my own.
For that date the list shows 2 stored B17s (61666 and 61668) but both these were Footballers not 'Castles'. 61666 was withdrawn in March 1960. Although listed as stored, 61668 actually lasted until August 1960 and became the last survivor of the B17 class.
The B17s with Castle names were withdrawn between 1953 (61624) and January 1960 (61626). However 3 other B17 Castles were rebuilt as B2s,though one of those (61632) was later renamed and all 3 had been withdrawn by the middle of 1959.
Your inside cylinder engine with raised running plate would probably have been either a B12 or a D16/3. Unfortunately the R.O. list for 1 March 1960 has nothing resembling either of those types. The other stored engines at Southend Vic on that date were all 0-6-0s: 5 J19/J20s, 4 J39s, 2 J15s and 9 J17s.
My feeling is that your memory of the stored engines probably relates to an earlier date than 1 March 1960, so the RCTS list may not be that much help in confirming what you in fact saw.
Any way for what it's worth a list of engines stored at Southend Victoria did appear in the R.O. It refers to 1 March 1960. I must stress that these are other people's observations not my own.
For that date the list shows 2 stored B17s (61666 and 61668) but both these were Footballers not 'Castles'. 61666 was withdrawn in March 1960. Although listed as stored, 61668 actually lasted until August 1960 and became the last survivor of the B17 class.
The B17s with Castle names were withdrawn between 1953 (61624) and January 1960 (61626). However 3 other B17 Castles were rebuilt as B2s,though one of those (61632) was later renamed and all 3 had been withdrawn by the middle of 1959.
Your inside cylinder engine with raised running plate would probably have been either a B12 or a D16/3. Unfortunately the R.O. list for 1 March 1960 has nothing resembling either of those types. The other stored engines at Southend Vic on that date were all 0-6-0s: 5 J19/J20s, 4 J39s, 2 J15s and 9 J17s.
My feeling is that your memory of the stored engines probably relates to an earlier date than 1 March 1960, so the RCTS list may not be that much help in confirming what you in fact saw.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Thanks very much for your reply.
This memory teases me because its something I can only just remember - I would have been 3 or 4 at the time.
I can't say categorically the loco with raised footplate wasn't a J39, or even a J20. I don't think it was a D16/3. The best fit with my memory is a B12, but I could be totally wrong. And obviously I've never been convinced by my late Grandad's insistence that the outside cylinder job was a Castle!
The particular thing about these locos that I hoped might have jogged someone's memory is that they weren't stored at Southend Victoria shed, but at the unelectrified sidings at the far end (and far side) of the carriage sidings only 100 yards or so from Prittlewell station - they'd have been invisible from the main line, I think, and out of sight from the shed. So if anyone went and 'copped' them they'd have had to make a special detour.
Regards
Pete
This memory teases me because its something I can only just remember - I would have been 3 or 4 at the time.
I can't say categorically the loco with raised footplate wasn't a J39, or even a J20. I don't think it was a D16/3. The best fit with my memory is a B12, but I could be totally wrong. And obviously I've never been convinced by my late Grandad's insistence that the outside cylinder job was a Castle!
The particular thing about these locos that I hoped might have jogged someone's memory is that they weren't stored at Southend Victoria shed, but at the unelectrified sidings at the far end (and far side) of the carriage sidings only 100 yards or so from Prittlewell station - they'd have been invisible from the main line, I think, and out of sight from the shed. So if anyone went and 'copped' them they'd have had to make a special detour.
Regards
Pete
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
If you can get access to the Railway Observer for 1960 it would be worth checking to see if their lists of stored engines mention a specific location at Southend Victoria. When I copied the lists I may not have included that sort of information. Certainly engines were often stored at some distance from running sheds, wherever siding space was available I suppose. Some of these dumps lasted for many months and featured regularly in peoples' trip reports. For some places I can check the RO lists from my own observations because when visiting sheds I usually made a note of which engines were in store - they could be distinguished because their chimneys were covered. Unfortunately Southend Victoria was not one of the sheds I visited during that period.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Checking through my 1960 notebook again I found a record of a shed visit to Southend Victoria on 26 June 1960. The engines seen were as follows, in the order they are written in my notebook:
65539, 65564, 64660, 65506, 64708, 64693, 64775, 64765, 64784, 65503, 61668, 64686, 65511
Total 13 engines of which all except 64708 also appear in the RCTS list of stored locomotives dated 1 March 1960. The interesting thing is that none of these 13 engines had actually been withdrawn by 26 June 1960. All of them lasted until August and 65511 did not go until the end of November. They were all allocated to 30A Stratford.
These are my own observations. Although I cannot now remember the actual location I have no recollection of going to sidings near Prittlewell station. My list almost certainly refers to locomotives at or in the immediate vicinity of Southend Victoria running shed itself.
The lists I copied from the RCTS are just titled "Stored Locos Lists. They are for various dates between November 1959 and May 1960. Observations of this kind did appear in the monthly issues of the Railway Observer and it is quite possible that the R.O. was the source of these lists. On the other hand I dimly remember sending away for a copy of a separate combined list, which may have been something put together for circulation to those who wanted it. 'Read and pass on', that sort of thing. If it was something of that nature there should be a reference to it somewhere in the RO during 1960.
65539, 65564, 64660, 65506, 64708, 64693, 64775, 64765, 64784, 65503, 61668, 64686, 65511
Total 13 engines of which all except 64708 also appear in the RCTS list of stored locomotives dated 1 March 1960. The interesting thing is that none of these 13 engines had actually been withdrawn by 26 June 1960. All of them lasted until August and 65511 did not go until the end of November. They were all allocated to 30A Stratford.
These are my own observations. Although I cannot now remember the actual location I have no recollection of going to sidings near Prittlewell station. My list almost certainly refers to locomotives at or in the immediate vicinity of Southend Victoria running shed itself.
The lists I copied from the RCTS are just titled "Stored Locos Lists. They are for various dates between November 1959 and May 1960. Observations of this kind did appear in the monthly issues of the Railway Observer and it is quite possible that the R.O. was the source of these lists. On the other hand I dimly remember sending away for a copy of a separate combined list, which may have been something put together for circulation to those who wanted it. 'Read and pass on', that sort of thing. If it was something of that nature there should be a reference to it somewhere in the RO during 1960.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Thanks again - I'll see if I can get access to the R.O. for 1959-60, seems like the best chance.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
I recently came across this debate as I was searching for information about the last B17. I’m afraid I can’t definitively answer Pete’s question but I can add to the following information which may be of interest. I do have all the Railway Observers, Railway Magazines and Trains Illustrateds of the period plus the relevant “What Happened to Steam” by PB Hands. The latter series is reported as containing many inaccuracies but I’ve found them mostly OK.
The latter states that the last “Castle” B17s went as follows: 61625 Raby Castle scrapped Doncaster 1/60 after storage there in 12/59 and 61626 Brancepeth Castle scrapped Doncaster 2/60 after storage there 1/60. So it is possible that Pete saw one of these before being towed up to Doncaster for scrapping if his observation was in 1959 - in which case maybe a B12 could have been there too?
But 61666 or 61668 were certainly there from about December 1959, for which I’ve found the following additional references.
Trains Illustrated reported as follows:
* February 1960 that: “Several Stratford and Colchester steam engines are now stored at Southend Victoria where the collection in mid-December included a B17 No. 61666 as well as numerous ex-GE 0-6-0s.”
* May 1960 - an excellent valedictory to the class by “Balmore” including this on 61668:”At the time of writing we have had to place in store the last B17 remaining in the Stratford District, no. 61668. In due course she will be called to shops for breaking up. She is not a very brilliant machine these days. Her last job was to work new 25kv ac electric sets to and from Goodmayes and Clacton, making use of the Westinghouse pump, for she was one of the later engines fitted with the air brake equipment to work Westinghouse trains and vacuum for the engine and tender. Constant vacuum roller ring trouble was keeping her too much on the repair list so we made her workable once more and dispatched her to the store dump at Southend.”
* The October issue reported that: “…the last of the B17 4-6-0 class, no. 61668 was removed from store at Southend and sent to Stratford on August 21, being broken up the following week.”
But these were not the last ACTIVE B17s as several were working into the spring of 1960. Forum members might like to see what I’ve found about those:
* The Railway Observer for June 1960 reported that: “On 19th - 20th April 61664 (31B) hauled the 1.40pm parcels from Liverpool St. to Ipswich. The two following days the B17 worked from London with the 2.00pm parcels to Cambridge.”
* Trains Illustrated for July 1960 seemed to have the last word that I have found: “A visitor to March on May 21, learned that the shed’s three remaining B17 4-6-0s are still in regular use: No. 61660 was receiving minor repairs but No. 61664 was seen in steam in the yard and No. 61657 was on the 11.26 am Peterborough East - Cambridge.”
There are several photos of these engines on shed at March in 1960 but I’d LOVE to see some photos of the locos stored between Southend and Prittlewell. Doubtless they are so rare because as Pete says they were relatively concealed.
Anyone else got any more info?
The latter states that the last “Castle” B17s went as follows: 61625 Raby Castle scrapped Doncaster 1/60 after storage there in 12/59 and 61626 Brancepeth Castle scrapped Doncaster 2/60 after storage there 1/60. So it is possible that Pete saw one of these before being towed up to Doncaster for scrapping if his observation was in 1959 - in which case maybe a B12 could have been there too?
But 61666 or 61668 were certainly there from about December 1959, for which I’ve found the following additional references.
Trains Illustrated reported as follows:
* February 1960 that: “Several Stratford and Colchester steam engines are now stored at Southend Victoria where the collection in mid-December included a B17 No. 61666 as well as numerous ex-GE 0-6-0s.”
* May 1960 - an excellent valedictory to the class by “Balmore” including this on 61668:”At the time of writing we have had to place in store the last B17 remaining in the Stratford District, no. 61668. In due course she will be called to shops for breaking up. She is not a very brilliant machine these days. Her last job was to work new 25kv ac electric sets to and from Goodmayes and Clacton, making use of the Westinghouse pump, for she was one of the later engines fitted with the air brake equipment to work Westinghouse trains and vacuum for the engine and tender. Constant vacuum roller ring trouble was keeping her too much on the repair list so we made her workable once more and dispatched her to the store dump at Southend.”
* The October issue reported that: “…the last of the B17 4-6-0 class, no. 61668 was removed from store at Southend and sent to Stratford on August 21, being broken up the following week.”
But these were not the last ACTIVE B17s as several were working into the spring of 1960. Forum members might like to see what I’ve found about those:
* The Railway Observer for June 1960 reported that: “On 19th - 20th April 61664 (31B) hauled the 1.40pm parcels from Liverpool St. to Ipswich. The two following days the B17 worked from London with the 2.00pm parcels to Cambridge.”
* Trains Illustrated for July 1960 seemed to have the last word that I have found: “A visitor to March on May 21, learned that the shed’s three remaining B17 4-6-0s are still in regular use: No. 61660 was receiving minor repairs but No. 61664 was seen in steam in the yard and No. 61657 was on the 11.26 am Peterborough East - Cambridge.”
There are several photos of these engines on shed at March in 1960 but I’d LOVE to see some photos of the locos stored between Southend and Prittlewell. Doubtless they are so rare because as Pete says they were relatively concealed.
Anyone else got any more info?
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Thanks you very much for all that info.
The main problem I have is that I can't remember whether it was summer 1959 or summer 1960.
I'm not surprised that no-one has come up with any pictures. The sidings are some distance from the actual shed and don't seem ever to have been mentioned as a place were locos were dumped.
From all the info so far I think the best guess is that it was summer 1960 and the loco was 61668 - I believe it went first and the other locos hung on for a few weeks more before disappearing. That would make the loco with raised footplates one of the J39's in Flamingo's list, and the others two or three of the GE 0-6-0's.
Three things that stop me being certain. First, I don't know why Grandad would have thought the first loco was a Castle if it didn't have a castle name. Second is my feeling the second loco in line was a B12. Several were in store at Southend for a relatively long time after being withdrawn - I have condemmed dates for B12's but no final scrapping dates. But I think by Summer '60 only 61572 would have been left and that definitely was not at Southend. Third is Flamingo not remembering any trek out to the sidings - but if he was on the 'railway' side of the fence maybe it wouldn't have seemed so far?
Memory of course is highly unreliable, all I can say for certain is that there were four or five locos, all tender locos, they were there for a substantial period of time (months at least) and the first two were larger and more impressive than the others!
The main problem I have is that I can't remember whether it was summer 1959 or summer 1960.
I'm not surprised that no-one has come up with any pictures. The sidings are some distance from the actual shed and don't seem ever to have been mentioned as a place were locos were dumped.
From all the info so far I think the best guess is that it was summer 1960 and the loco was 61668 - I believe it went first and the other locos hung on for a few weeks more before disappearing. That would make the loco with raised footplates one of the J39's in Flamingo's list, and the others two or three of the GE 0-6-0's.
Three things that stop me being certain. First, I don't know why Grandad would have thought the first loco was a Castle if it didn't have a castle name. Second is my feeling the second loco in line was a B12. Several were in store at Southend for a relatively long time after being withdrawn - I have condemmed dates for B12's but no final scrapping dates. But I think by Summer '60 only 61572 would have been left and that definitely was not at Southend. Third is Flamingo not remembering any trek out to the sidings - but if he was on the 'railway' side of the fence maybe it wouldn't have seemed so far?
Memory of course is highly unreliable, all I can say for certain is that there were four or five locos, all tender locos, they were there for a substantial period of time (months at least) and the first two were larger and more impressive than the others!
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
A little more progress. 
I have now found photographs (from HMRS) of B17 61668 and J17 65503 in store at Southend. There is a glimpse of a tender to the left of 65503, tantalizingly similar to that of 61668, but I expect it was on J39 64784, which would accord with Flamingo's notes.
I don't know Southend but thanks to Bing oblique aerial pictures and the background of the two photos, the location is on the east (MPD) side of the line about 150 yards north of the platform ends - opposite some very distinctive gable-fronted houses in Crowborough Road. There is a row of white industrial buildings with blue doors pretty much on the site now.
This would have been very visible from the path you walked, but much nearer Southend shed than Prittlewell station. Of course, they may have been shunted about.
Unfortunately the pictures aren't dated - except 1959-60 which we know already - but Spring-Summer 1960 would accord well with Flamingo's notes and recollection, so I expect the scene is what he saw.
Can't drag much more info out of the picture except:
- The B17 has its smokebox door open and,
- The tender in front of 65503 has "For Sale 3/6" chalked on it!
Of course, the J39s had the running plate curving up over their fairly large (for an 0-6-0)) wheels. Could these be what you recall, I wonder?
I have now found photographs (from HMRS) of B17 61668 and J17 65503 in store at Southend. There is a glimpse of a tender to the left of 65503, tantalizingly similar to that of 61668, but I expect it was on J39 64784, which would accord with Flamingo's notes.
I don't know Southend but thanks to Bing oblique aerial pictures and the background of the two photos, the location is on the east (MPD) side of the line about 150 yards north of the platform ends - opposite some very distinctive gable-fronted houses in Crowborough Road. There is a row of white industrial buildings with blue doors pretty much on the site now.
This would have been very visible from the path you walked, but much nearer Southend shed than Prittlewell station. Of course, they may have been shunted about.
Unfortunately the pictures aren't dated - except 1959-60 which we know already - but Spring-Summer 1960 would accord well with Flamingo's notes and recollection, so I expect the scene is what he saw.
Can't drag much more info out of the picture except:
- The B17 has its smokebox door open and,
- The tender in front of 65503 has "For Sale 3/6" chalked on it!
Of course, the J39s had the running plate curving up over their fairly large (for an 0-6-0)) wheels. Could these be what you recall, I wonder?
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
I looked on Google Maps - the location of the sidings was between Kenway and the large group of carriage sidings - it looks like where they used to be is now a building supplier's yard. The location is actually only a hundred yards or so south and east of Prittlewell station.
I'm pretty sure we are talking 61668, a J39 and a couple of J17's. I even kind of remember the 'for sale' graffiti! I suspect that they were shoved down there out of the way for a while and then brought back to the shed area for final departure. Thanks everyone for all your help.
I'm pretty sure we are talking 61668, a J39 and a couple of J17's. I even kind of remember the 'for sale' graffiti! I suspect that they were shoved down there out of the way for a while and then brought back to the shed area for final departure. Thanks everyone for all your help.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Just an observation from a curious reader of the posts - 61668 was only in service for about 23 years and was cut up within days of being withdrawn. Saw 'Britannia' at Haywards Heath yesterday now a sprightly 60 years old.....
Off topic - but which B17s went to the GC section?
Off topic - but which B17s went to the GC section?
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manna
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Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
G'Day Gents
Enjoying this thread, as I lived in Southend for about 12 years, but in the 70's so no steam left, to go off track a bit (sorry) when a B17 was scrapped would the boiler have been used again, on a B1, and what about other salvageable parts, tenders, wheels, bogie etc???
manna
Enjoying this thread, as I lived in Southend for about 12 years, but in the 70's so no steam left, to go off track a bit (sorry) when a B17 was scrapped would the boiler have been used again, on a B1, and what about other salvageable parts, tenders, wheels, bogie etc???
manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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50C
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Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
B17's shedded at Woodford Halse post-nationalisation were-
61647 1950
61650 1949-51
61651 1949-51
61664 1949-51
61667 1950-51
61669 1949-51
There may have been some based on the GC pre 1948 and if so they would possibly have been allocated to Gorton,Woodford or Leicester.Leicester had V2's and A3's post 1948(15 different A3's up to 1957-the last ones to leave were 60049/102/104/106/107/111 in Sept 1957).
50c
61647 1950
61650 1949-51
61651 1949-51
61664 1949-51
61667 1950-51
61669 1949-51
There may have been some based on the GC pre 1948 and if so they would possibly have been allocated to Gorton,Woodford or Leicester.Leicester had V2's and A3's post 1948(15 different A3's up to 1957-the last ones to leave were 60049/102/104/106/107/111 in Sept 1957).
50c
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
Thanks 50c. Legend has it that there were a couple at Colwick too.
Re: Locos stored / dumped at Southend Victoria
The Footballer batch of B17's were actually built for service on the GC.
It seems certain from earlier in the thread that 61668 spent some months in store before being withdrawn and scrapped. Why this is I don't know, unless it was thought it might be used for move electric stock again (being one of the last remaining Westinghouse fitted large engines).
An interesting wider discussion would be on Stratford's policy on scrappings - it seems clear from a study of GE section loco history that a wide selection of parts could have been reused due to the degree of standardisation between different classes - was this in fact done?
It seems certain from earlier in the thread that 61668 spent some months in store before being withdrawn and scrapped. Why this is I don't know, unless it was thought it might be used for move electric stock again (being one of the last remaining Westinghouse fitted large engines).
An interesting wider discussion would be on Stratford's policy on scrappings - it seems clear from a study of GE section loco history that a wide selection of parts could have been reused due to the degree of standardisation between different classes - was this in fact done?